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  1. kikkuchiyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2007 4:43pm


     Style: Anything that works

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari Hodari
    Here's a video of a Capoera fighter in the MMA:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezGfmJ0SCoY

    In truth, Capoeira's departure from its combat roots is an unfortunate by-product of its fadishness in North American and elsewhere.
    I dunno man, from what I've read and heard from the "velha guarda" mestres, their main beef was with Senzala and Bimba's Luta Bahiana Regional. They were upset with the changes brought on by these two Capoeira communities.

    "Bimba came from Capoeira Angola and created Capoeira Regional. He became very famous and was a strong leader, and this inhibited other mestres of his time...The antagonism between Reigonal and Angola appeared over the issue of which was more efficient as a fight...It was in this context that the antagonism was born and grew and remains untill today"

    -Ubirajara de Almeida a.k.a. Mestre Acordeon

    "I'm old but I'm not going to obscure the truth, Capoeira now is better in several ways...The blows with the feet were slow, not very powerful, and not very dangerous except when delivered at the exact moment when the face of the other guy it totally vulnerable. They didn't have the strength and speed of todays kicks"

    -Mestre Cajiquinha

    "In regard to the game itself, the old mestres' thought that something had been gained(especially in the strength and speed of the kicks), and something had been lost(slyness, smartness, malicia)."

    "...I interviewed Mestres Valdemar, Joao Grande, Canjiquinha, and Atenilo...I must repeat that almost all groups presenting themselves were from Senzala, or strongly influenced by the Reigional-Senzala style...So we must understand that the old mestres' comments about "contemporary capoeira" in 1984 are mostly directed toward the Senzala style that was hegemonic in the capoeira world from 1970 to 1990."

    -Nestor Capoeira, The Little Capoeira Book

    If anything, the fighting aspects of capoeira have improved(at least since the early 20th century, when these guys began). According to the men who were actually there for the "shift" , it was the playful, deceptive attitude and cunning that was lost. As for North America being responsible for the decline of capoeira, most Brazilian capoeiristas blame Senzala and Regional, and will tell you that it began way before capoeira came to America. I don't mean to say that you are wrong, but I'll wager that there's a lot more to the subject than you think.:chewy:
    Last edited by kikkuchiyo; 7/21/2007 4:50pm at .
  2. Askari Hodari is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2007 5:41pm


     Style: CLF, Capoeira, etc.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kikkuchiyo
    I dunno man, from what I've read and heard from the "velha guarda" mestres, their main beef was with Senzala and Bimba's Luta Bahiana Regional. They were upset with the changes brought on by these two Capoeira communities.

    "Bimba came from Capoeira Angola and created Capoeira Regional. He became very famous and was a strong leader, and this inhibited other mestres of his time...The antagonism between Reigonal and Angola appeared over the issue of which was more efficient as a fight...It was in this context that the antagonism was born and grew and remains untill today"

    -Ubirajara de Almeida a.k.a. Mestre Acordeon

    "I'm old but I'm not going to obscure the truth, Capoeira now is better in several ways...The blows with the feet were slow, not very powerful, and not very dangerous except when delivered at the exact moment when the face of the other guy it totally vulnerable. They didn't have the strength and speed of todays kicks"

    -Mestre Cajiquinha

    "In regard to the game itself, the old mestres' thought that something had been gained(especially in the strength and speed of the kicks), and something had been lost(slyness, smartness, malicia)."

    "...I interviewed Mestres Valdemar, Joao Grande, Canjiquinha, and Atenilo...I must repeat that almost all groups presenting themselves were from Senzala, or strongly influenced by the Reigional-Senzala style...So we must understand that the old mestres' comments about "contemporary capoeira" in 1984 are mostly directed toward the Senzala style that was hegemonic in the capoeira world from 1970 to 1990."

    -Nestor Capoeira, The Little Capoeira Book

    If anything, the fighting aspects of capoeira have improved(at least since the early 20th century, when these guys began). According to the men who were actually there for the "shift" , it was the playful, deceptive attitude and cunning that was lost. As for North America being responsible for the decline of capoeira, most Brazilian capoeiristas blame Senzala and Regional, and will tell you that it began way before capoeira came to America. I don't mean to say that you are wrong, but I'll wager that there's a lot more to the subject than you think.:chewy:
    I agree. I think that its due to multiple factors. People have told me how regional often lacks malicia (multi-dimensional strategy and deception)...that these were somehow lost along the way. I was basing my comment off the aura of cardio-fitness-dance-aerobic-haveagoodtime that has come to permeate a lot of the Capoeira in the u.s. I have heard at least one mestre comment on this and how many people are teaching capoeira here who have been trained in a very one-dimensional manner. I think that this connects with your point. Thanks.
  3. kikkuchiyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2007 6:09pm


     Style: Anything that works

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari Hodari
    I was basing my comment off the aura of cardio-fitness-dance-aerobic-haveagoodtime that has come to permeate a lot of the Capoeira in the u.s.
    Yeah, capoeira does seem to be the next cardio-kickboxing. It'sad really. My old mestre used to say that it takes two to play capoeira. I think he was trying to say practicing capoeira moves alone and in repetition is not at all capoeira. Capoeira was, is, and allways will be a community based art; an interaction between people, not a way of moving or kicking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Askari Hodari
    I have heard at least one mestre comment on this and how many people are teaching capoeira here who have been trained in a very one-dimensional manner.
    I couldn't agree more. I've looked all over for "live" capoeira instruction, but almost every class I attend consists of more drills than roda time. Most of the students don't even realize that capoeira is supposed to be a creative and individual process; they spend all their time doing their best imitation of the mestre. Capoeira is slowly going the way of krotty klass. :angry2:
  4. cafezinho is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 10:17pm


     Style: Capoeira Angola

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To WingChunLawyer, Dr. Desch-Obi will be publishing a book about the roots of capoeira, and will be discussing the Maltas and their association to capoeira. I count myself very fortunate to have been able to attend a lecture of his. To any one who doesn't know, he's made a study of african martial arts and it's diasporta.

    I have just a couple of points to make. Firstly, Muzenza is a Contemporânea school of capoeira, in that stylistically, they are very distinct from the old school capoeira of Rio and later Bahia.

    Razors (hard to come by for dirt poor slaves/ex-slaves as they were fairly expensive and there wasn't a booming drug trade-sticks were far more common) were always held in the hands, and hidden in an article of clothing. Despite what you heard, there are no descriptions from that time, or any time, of razors being wielded with the feet.

    The image that has come down to us of capoeira as a dirty street fight was from the perspective of 16th-19th and early 20th police, slave owners/upper class whites in general, that saw all blacks not under their direct supervision as potentially violent and bloodthirsty. Capoeira angola that exists today is different from the older style in certain particulars-different songs, instruments, rhythms, training method, and the influence of Yoruban and Portuguese culture is stronger in Bahia than it would have been in Rio in the early years.
  5. capoeiragem is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2007 1:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: capoeira

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a newbie to this forum and happy to read there's real information about Capoeira and not only the usual "is it useful in freefighting or is it bullshido" discussions. So thumbs up!

    Quote Originally Posted by kikkuchiyo
    I dunno man, from what I've read and heard from the "velha guarda" mestres, their main beef was with Senzala and Bimba's Luta Bahiana Regional. They were upset with the changes brought on by these two Capoeira communities.
    @kikkuchiyo : good quotes. My two cents: don't concentrate too much on the differences in style or lineage, because as the saying goes in Brazil "Capoeira é uma só": Capoeira is one. The trickery, music, and much of the movements are basic ingredients for a game that can be expressed in different ways. Because capoeira is a strong group thing, disputes about styles easily develop.

    I also read some posts by people who know Capoeira masters that are integrating the fight 'back into the art'. Don't be fooled. The roda is a cultural tradition, I believe a freefight has little to do with that. Mestre Bimba (creator of the Regional Fight of Bahia) did some ring fights in the 1930s. He challenged another capoeira player in one of these fights, but when the guy wanted to start a capoeira game mestre Bimba just beat him in the head and won the fight. The other guy complained but Bimba said: this is not a roda, this is a fight. So there you have a nice answer for people challenging capoeira's efectiviness.
    Last edited by capoeiragem; 9/14/2007 1:57pm at .
  6. kikkuchiyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2007 12:49am


     Style: Anything that works

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man, you could not be more right. I get way too carried away when trying to dig up the 'ultimate truth' on something; in this case, Capoeira. I've been playing the game for some years, and I'm beginning to see things a bit differently now. Rather than searching for a style or method of motion, my focus is on paying attention, learning to perceive the smallest nuances in another's behavior. Following along with their rhythm until I see them slip, then breaking their rhythm and taking control. Much more of a head game than anything else.

    Thanks for reading the thread, I'm glad that more Capoeiristas are discovering Bullshido. The story about Bimba was great, and has a very good moral: Capoeira can be used in a fight, but Capoeira is not a "fight" unto itself; one should always make a clear distinction between fighting and playing(a game). Luta Bahiana Reigonal my ass...


    Capoeira e uma so!!!
  7. TTinkerbell is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2007 1:36am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, TKD and kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hello.....again

    I was here for a few weeks as Tinkebell, but whenever I logged in the first page I went to had me as logged out again.

    So this is the new me.
  8. capoeiragem is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2007 9:53am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: capoeira

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cafezinho
    The image that has come down to us of capoeira as a dirty street fight was from the perspective of 16th-19th and early 20th police, slave owners/upper class whites in general, that saw all blacks not under their direct supervision as potentially violent and bloodthirsty. Capoeira angola that exists today is different from the older style in certain particulars-different songs, instruments, rhythms, training method, and the influence of Yoruban and Portuguese culture is stronger in Bahia than it would have been in Rio in the early years.
    Can't agree more with this. good point!
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