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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 12:18pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now, here we go.

    O. Simon founder of Temple Kung Fu. http://www.zenshack.net/martialarts/...monhistory.htm

    Now according to this website:
    http://templekungforum.14.forumer.co...de6d66641acd70

    This gentleman compiled a lineage tree of Moh Kempo:
    http://www.zenshack.net/martialarts/mohfamilytree.pdf

    Now, according to the linage tree, O simon and M Hilbig(?) worked or trained together.
    M. Hilbig trained P. McAndrews who trained Brian Leishman.

    Energy Lake Kung Fu Studios was originally owned by Brian Leishman.
    http://www.whitelotussystem.com/

    The schools were sold and the copyright was purchased by Gary Braniff. According to correspondence, Gary Braniff wasn't taught Leishman's White Lotus system.

    Leishman also confirms that Gary did train and become an instructor of the original system called Energy Lake Kung Fu.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 6/14/2007 4:22pm at . Reason: Fixed broken link
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 12:20pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Now, here we go.

    O. Simon founder of Temple Kung Fu. http://www.zenshack.net/martialarts/...monhistory.htm

    Now according to this website:
    http://templekungforum.14.forumer.co...de6d66641acd70

    This gentleman compiled a lineage tree of Moh Kempo:
    http://www.zenshack.net/martialarts/mohfamilytree.pdf

    Now, according to the linage tree, O simon and M Hilbig(?) worked or trained together.
    M. Hilbig trained P. McAndrews who trained Brian Leishman.

    Energy Lake Kung Fu Studios was originally owned by Brian Leishman.
    http://www.whitelotussystem.com/l

    The schools were sold and the copyright was purchased by Gary Braniff. According to correspondence, Gary Braniff wasn't taught Leishman's White Lotus system.
    If you believe Braniff's training history he is teaching a form of Kempo.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 4:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One little tid bit that I find interesting, Leishman says the original system was non-combative.

    Take that as you will.
  4. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 5:05pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    One little tid bit that I find interesting, Leishman says the original system was non-combative.

    Take that as you will.
    Well, Margie Hilbig apparently had ranks in American Kenpo and Chinwoo CMA, but when she and Simon were together, they allegedly studied karate from a book, then picked stuff up as they went along. This thread:

    http://templekungforum.14.forumer.co...?t=39&start=25

    is interesting in that regard.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 5:22pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. That is why I kept digging. It was to fascinating to stop.

    Seriously, she writes a book stating that they learned from books. Then continues to teach Martial Arts and people keep coming to learn from basically, an admitted fraud.

    It just shows you how clouded people can become.

    I know she may know stuff now but still.....makes you wonder.
  6. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 5:45pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Yes. That is why I kept digging. It was to fascinating to stop.

    Seriously, she writes a book stating that they learned from books. Then continues to teach Martial Arts and people keep coming to learn from basically, an admitted fraud.

    It just shows you how clouded people can become.

    I know she may know stuff now but still.....makes you wonder.
    Is somebody who admits where they learned their stuff really a fraud? I don't know what she was claiming when she and Simon were training together.

    I've also read that, back then, Simon was supposed to be competent:

    http://www.kungfu4u.com/_disc3/00000990.htm

    I have a feeling that this kind of thing was par for the course until the 60s. In the US, you have Robert Trias, Ed Parker and a bunch of other guys who picked up training piecemeal. I have a feeling that, aside from judo, you'd be hard pressed to find an ironclad martial arts lineage outside of ethnic enclaves before the 60s. Hilbig seems to have "filled in" her training; Simon didn't and then got t3h crazy.

    AFAIK, the leading edge of legitimate Karate in Canada was Mas Tsuruoka and Chito-ryu in the 50s. I met him; nice guy.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 5:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Is somebody who admits where they learned their stuff really a fraud? I don't know what she was claiming when she and Simon were training together.

    I've also read that, back then, Simon was supposed to be competent:

    http://www.kungfu4u.com/_disc3/00000990.htm

    I have a feeling that this kind of thing was par for the course until the 60s. In the US, you have Robert Trias, Ed Parker and a bunch of other guys who picked up training piecemeal. I have a feeling that, aside from judo, you'd be hard pressed to find an ironclad martial arts lineage outside of ethnic enclaves before the 60s. Hilbig seems to have "filled in" her training; Simon didn't and then got t3h crazy.

    AFAIK, the leading edge of legitimate Karate in Canada was Mas Tsuruoka and Chito-ryu in the 50s. I met him; nice guy.
    Now with other training no.

    From what I gathered on the threads she didn't admit this until after they were famous. She wrote a book that stated they made up their techniques. IMO that does make it fraudulent at the time.

    I'm not trying to say she is now.
  8. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 5:57pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Now with other training no.

    From what I gathered on the threads she didn't admit this until after they were famous. She wrote a book that stated they made up their techniques. IMO that does make it fraudulent at the time.
    Oh, I agree there.

    I wonder if the people they produced back then could fight? I vaguely remember reading that it was based on Oyama's big old manual.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2007 6:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Oh, I agree there.

    I wonder if the people they produced back then could fight? I vaguely remember reading that it was based on Oyama's big old manual.
    Hmmm, that would be an interesting search I may take that up.

    You know as well as I there are some people that can learn from books and such and make things work.

    No it isn't for everyone but still who knows.
  10. chemistry is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 8:30am


     Style: Shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneSouth
    Hey now, the $C closed at ~ $US 0.935 yesterday. Several leading financial institutions are predicting $C 1.00 = $US 1.00 by end of year.
    Dang... It's been a while since I've looked at Canadian currency... Thanks for the heads-up.

    Seriously though $1K / yr = $85 / mo, is about average for a for-profit martial arts club.
    Exactly. That's about what most schools around my area charge per month, including Oyama's Kyokushin schools.
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