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  1. Matt W. is offline
    Matt W.'s Avatar

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 4:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please point me towards these statistics.
    Well, I'm sure you've already checked out the UCR stats from the FBI and the NCVS? Admittedly, they do not specify stats for "bar brawls", however, they do show that most violent crime is surprisingly lacking in fatalities and serious injury. Far less than most fear-mogering RBSDers would have us believe. For example, in the NCVS (here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf ) out of 5.2 mil crimes of violence, only 1.7 mil resulted in "completed" or actual violence. Which is roughly 1/3. Also, out of that 5.2 mil, 2.5 mil (so, about 1/2) are simple assaults with no injury. The other .8 mil of simple assaults result in only minor injury.

    So if you manage to even be the victim of a violent crime (and that percentage is actually pretty low too), you have a 2/3 chance of both receiving only minor injury or of there being no actual violence at all. And that's including all kinds of assaults. You try and pull up just what the stats on "bar brawls" would be and your chances would automatically better just by the removal of things like rape from that stat pool.

    In turn, I'd like you to show any statistics you have to back up your assertion that "too many bar fights these days turn into violent confrontation involving weapons..."

    My point with all this is that itís not worth getting into a fight just to protect your own fragile ego under the assumption that itís just a ďbrawlĒ and that the person will take their beating like a man and move on.
    That's a personal choice and I'm not advocating anything either way. I just stated what type if training I think would best prepare you for that should that be what you want. For the record, like most normal adults, I haven't been in a "street fight" since High School.

    Most large cities (including where I live) have gang issues and the dumbass you get into it with in a bar might be waiting for you outside the bar afterwards with a few of his homies and/or some kind of weapon...
    Dude, EVERYBODY knows that if you do get in a bar fight, you LEAVE THE BAR right after. Preferably before the guy you beat even does.

    Iím not advocating a paranoid elomoresque mentality here, what Iím advocating is common sense in choosing when itís worth fighting and when itís better to just walk away.
    Sure. And again, I'm not really advocating either way. I'm just saying that if you want to brawl, learning how to fight is the way to be successful at it. And that's simple...
  2. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 4:58pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice!!! dude do you mind if I give this info to some of my less educated friends?
    Glad you liked it. Feel free to give it to whomever you like. Of course, to disclaim, that is my personal opinion and I am not speaking as a representative of the agency I work for. Use at your own risk... Yadda, yadda.
  3. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 5:22pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now what about scenario based training (in addition to combat sport training) and multi opponent sparring?
  4. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 5:37pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe scenario training is of limited value to your average joe who is unable to predict with any likelyhood what type of situation he may be involved in and has no reason to train group tactics or much in the way of verbal skills. Cops do, which makes scenarios more beneficial for them. They have to make arrests, and so can do arrest scenarios. They can't just walk away when someone becomes belligerent but must stay and try to de-escalate the guy with verbals. They have to learn how to work together with other cops and utilize all their equipment. Your average joe doesn't have to do any of that. Also, your average martial hobbyist will not usually have enough time to train fighting fundementals as it is. So scenario time would be better spent on those, IMO. The one exception I can think of might be shoot/no shoot scenarios. Anyone who carries a firearm might have to make that call and could benefit from the training. Also, they can be hella fun, so...

    As for multiples, I'm not good enough at fighting one person yet to waste any time trying to fight 3. And I would say that also applies to most hobbyists.
  5. Shinkengata is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 5:38pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,Wrestling,Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    Here's my personal belief, FWIW.

    There's two main types of self defense situations. Criminal assaults and brawls. Each has a different focus and requires different things. IMO, when most people walk into an MA school and say "I want to be able to defend myself" they mean in a brawl. They mean when a bully at the bar or carnival or in school or wherever gets in their face and shoves them they want to be able to kick that guys ass.

    That's simple. You learn to fight. Best place to learn to fight? Sport combat schools. MMA or a solid grappling or striking art. You learn how to take getting pounded, fighting fundementals like movement, timing, distance, how to hit hard, takedown and avoid takedowns, clinch, etc. Everything you need to kick that bully's butt.

    Criminal assaults are another matter, however. They are more serious, and surviving one actually has very little to do with individual fighting prowess. For this kind of self defense the first and most important thing needed is knowledge. How do criminal assaults happen? What do attackers look for? Where and when do assaults most often take place? You find the answers to those questions (most local LE offer free classes on that stuff) and then YOU DO THE OPPOSITE. You don't act like a likely victim. You avoid putting yourself in situations where assaults are likely to happen. Next you follow some simple steps at trying to become more aware of your surroundings. Don't insulate yourself from the world by jamming your ipod and shoving your nose in a newspaper.

    After that I'd say a basic level of physical fitness is most helpfull. So you can run or resist if you have to. And only then, after all that, should you consider the fighting aspect of self defense (for an assault). And the first aspect to fighting off an assualt in a SHTF situation is being approprately armed. Despite what people claim, you can't learn to disable any attacker with your barehands in a 4 hour seminar. But you can learn how to pepper spray the crap out of someone or deploy a stun gun. And it is a lot easier for a 95 pound woman to learn to shoot a gun that will stop a 250 lb man than it is for her to train MA to a level where she can defeat that same guy.

    Only then do you train unarmed fighting. And that's simple. You learn to fight. Best place to learn to fight? Sport combat schools. MMA...

    This post should be stickied in every Martial Arts forum in existence.

    +Varrot to you, Matt!
  6. Chizilds is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 6:06pm


     Style: BJJ - SBGi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    I believe scenario training is of limited value to your average joe who is unable to predict with any likelyhood what type of situation he may be involved in and has no reason to train group tactics or much in the way of verbal skills. Cops do, which makes scenarios more beneficial for them. They have to make arrests, and so can do arrest scenarios. They can't just walk away when someone becomes belligerent but must stay and try to de-escalate the guy with verbals. They have to learn how to work together with other cops and utilize all their equipment. Your average joe doesn't have to do any of that. Also, your average martial hobbyist will not usually have enough time to train fighting fundementals as it is. So scenario time would be better spent on those, IMO. The one exception I can think of might be shoot/no shoot scenarios. Anyone who carries a firearm might have to make that call and could benefit from the training. Also, they can be hella fun, so...

    As for multiples, I'm not good enough at fighting one person yet to waste any time trying to fight 3. And I would say that also applies to most hobbyists.
    Holy hell I just realized you work/live in Spocompton! that place is as creepy as it gets at night!!! even when I went to Zaga it was nuts!
  7. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 8:19pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LOL @ Spocompton. I'm not a native and the first time I heard that I was like, WTF??? There is, however, quite the growing gang problem here.

    that place is as creepy as it gets at night!!!
    I have nice, cushy and family friendly daytime hours. Which is why I am a CCO and not a cop. :P

    And, Go Zags! (Though I will always be a Gator's fan...)
  8. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 11:03pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    out of 5.2 mil crimes of violence, only 1.7 mil resulted in "completed" or actual violence. Which is roughly 1/3. Also, out of that 5.2 mil, 2.5 mil (so, about 1/2) are simple assaults with no injury. The other .8 mil of simple assaults result in only minor injury.
    Those statistics are pretty much meaningless in the context of trying to figure out how many brawls escalate into something else. They do show, as you stated, that about 1/3 rd of violent crimes result in ďcompleted violenceĒ (without a real definition of what completed violence is). Also note that these statistics do NOT include murder (so assaults resulting in death are not included in the numbers).

    My opinion is based on observation; I have not compiled actual statistics. When I was 18 it was rare for a club or bar to have metal detectors. These days several bars I use to frequent when I was that age have been closed down because of brawls that escalated into stabbings and now a lot of clubs in the city have metal detectors at the door.

    We make quite few decisions in our lives which are meant to avoid things that have a low percentage of occurring but would inconvenience us greatly if they did (e.g think insurance). While itís true that a brawl probably wonít escalate into anything else, thereís still a chance that it will, so I pay for car and house insurance, and donít get into fights with people I donít know.

    Sure. And again, I'm not really advocating either way. I'm just saying that if you want to brawl, learning how to fight is the way to be successful at it. And that's simple...
    No problem with that, Iím not advocating taking up an RBSD only approach. I still think that arts like BJJ and Muay Thai should form the basis for any fighting skills you develop but I would add to your statement that a person who wants to brawl also needs to figure which bars to go to ďsafelyĒ engage in their chosen hobby.
  9. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 11:42pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm curious as to why BJJ and Muay Thai are always mentioned as arts perfect for self defense? Both arts are sport-driven, fashion techniques to deal with only one attacker at 12 o'clock, lack weapons defense techniques, and are not widely taught outside of a sporting context. Furthermore, few practitioners of said arts train in conditions that simulate "street" scenarios. Unfortunately, most TMA styles are guilty of the same faults. I really don't think the art matters so much as the method of training. The problem with sport-based systems, though, is that the rules encountered in the gym and the methods of attack are not seldom seen in street fights. Most street fights that I have seen involve wild, almost flailing attacks. Clean technique is a rarity. Also, anything can be used as a weapon, and you may never see the weapon until you get hit with it. To train for real self defense, I would think that a martial artist must spend some time preparing for such realities. Especially for bjj stylists, who won't have a soft mat to roll on in the street. A bjj practitioner would be a fool to believe that he can roll as well on the assphalt on a Las Vegas summer day (115 F on average) as he can on his nice soft mats in his air conditioned dojo. Preparing for the environment is a must. Strikers must also be aware of the fact that they may not have the room to maneuver in a street fight. Altercations don't always take place in a 16' x 16' space.
  10. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 11:45pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    I'm curious as to why BJJ and Muay Thai are always mentioned as arts perfect for self defense? Both arts are sport-driven, fashion techniques to deal with only one attacker at 12 o'clock, lack weapons defense techniques, and are not widely taught outside of a sporting context. Furthermore, few practitioners of said arts train in conditions that simulate "street" scenarios. Unfortunately, most TMA styles are guilty of the same faults. I really don't think the art matters so much as the method of training. The problem with sport-based systems, though, is that the rules encountered in the gym and the methods of attack are not seldom seen in street fights. Most street fights that I have seen involve wild, almost flailing attacks. Clean technique is a rarity. Also, anything can be used as a weapon, and you may never see the weapon until you get hit with it. To train for real self defense, I would think that a martial artist must spend some time preparing for such realities. Especially for bjj stylists, who won't have a soft mat to roll on in the street. A bjj practitioner would be a fool to believe that he can roll as well on the assphalt on a Las Vegas summer day (115 F on average) as he can on his nice soft mats in his air conditioned dojo. Preparing for the environment is a must. Strikers must also be aware of the fact that they may not have the room to maneuver in a street fight. Altercations don't always take place in a 16' x 16' space.

    Been discussed, use the search function.
    Last edited by rw4th; 6/08/2007 8:34am at .
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