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  1. Ke?poFist is offline
    Ke?poFist's Avatar

    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Long Island, NY
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 1:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Legitimate RBSD?

    Well it's RBSD sucks month, and as some of you may have noticed I have RBSD in my style field, and contrary to popular belief that's not entirely posted there in jest. So it's time for a flamewar with TUFers :)

    Despite the disdain for the acronym itself, I think we can all agree that if a school really wants to claim to teach "self defense" (as opposed to teaching >insert style/art/sport<) then they should have some RBSD elements.

    GJJ hardliners claim to teach their art not strictly in a sport BJJ mindset but indeed have a segment of class devoted to SD. I am not entirely sure what that portion of class is devoted to, but I assume it has special focus on techniques and drills that account for things like terrain, and defense from strikes/weapons using GJJ/BJJ techniques.

    My question now is, how much should be dedicated to that? We all know the typical BS RBSD trolls who disparage Live arts because they supposedly don't prepare for dirty/foul tactics, broken glass, lava, multiples, firearms, grenades, tanks, and midget armies; all without ever explaining how they prepare for such things with any more efficiency or practicality. But what about things that are workable in SD? Should it just be relegated to an occasional speech, or is it all just a waste of time?

    Things like baiting your opponent/assailant while in a hostile argument by putting your hands in a neutral, calming position, while ready to fake a calming gesture into a palm to the face or kick to the groin?

    Or how about padding up dog bros. style, and defending against someone with a stick/blunt object barehanded?

    Granted 90-95% of your time should be working live techniques bare-handed on a single opponent so that you learn to fight, but for those who truly are looking to teach SD, is it that unreasonable to account for the rest?
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  2. Matt W. is offline
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    Community Corrections Officer

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    Spokane, WA
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 2:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's my personal belief, FWIW.

    There's two main types of self defense situations. Criminal assaults and brawls. Each has a different focus and requires different things. IMO, when most people walk into an MA school and say "I want to be able to defend myself" they mean in a brawl. They mean when a bully at the bar or carnival or in school or wherever gets in their face and shoves them they want to be able to kick that guys ass.

    That's simple. You learn to fight. Best place to learn to fight? Sport combat schools. MMA or a solid grappling or striking art. You learn how to take getting pounded, fighting fundementals like movement, timing, distance, how to hit hard, takedown and avoid takedowns, clinch, etc. Everything you need to kick that bully's butt.

    Criminal assaults are another matter, however. They are more serious, and surviving one actually has very little to do with individual fighting prowess. For this kind of self defense the first and most important thing needed is knowledge. How do criminal assaults happen? What do attackers look for? Where and when do assaults most often take place? You find the answers to those questions (most local LE offer free classes on that stuff) and then YOU DO THE OPPOSITE. You don't act like a likely victim. You avoid putting yourself in situations where assaults are likely to happen. Next you follow some simple steps at trying to become more aware of your surroundings. Don't insulate yourself from the world by jamming your ipod and shoving your nose in a newspaper.

    After that I'd say a basic level of physical fitness is most helpfull. So you can run or resist if you have to. And only then, after all that, should you consider the fighting aspect of self defense (for an assault). And the first aspect to fighting off an assualt in a SHTF situation is being approprately armed. Despite what people claim, you can't learn to disable any attacker with your barehands in a 4 hour seminar. But you can learn how to pepper spray the crap out of someone or deploy a stun gun. And it is a lot easier for a 95 pound woman to learn to shoot a gun that will stop a 250 lb man than it is for her to train MA to a level where she can defeat that same guy.

    Only then do you train unarmed fighting. And that's simple. You learn to fight. Best place to learn to fight? Sport combat schools. MMA...
    Last edited by Matt W.; 6/07/2007 2:11pm at .
  3. ChiBlast is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 2:04pm


     Style: Sumo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Well it's RBSD sucks month, and as some of you may have noticed I have RBSD in my style field, and contrary to popular belief that's not entirely posted there in jest. So it's time for a flamewar with TUFers :)

    Despite the disdain for the acronym itself, I think we can all agree that if a school really wants to claim to teach "self defense" (as opposed to teaching >insert style/art/sport<) then they should have some RBSD elements.

    GJJ hardliners claim to teach their art not strictly in a sport BJJ mindset but indeed have a segment of class devoted to SD. I am not entirely sure what that portion of class is devoted to, but I assume it has special focus on techniques and drills that account for things like terrain, and defense from strikes/weapons using GJJ/BJJ techniques.

    My question now is, how much should be dedicated to that? We all know the typical BS RBSD trolls who disparage Live arts because they supposedly don't prepare for dirty/foul tactics, broken glass, lava, multiples, firearms, grenades, tanks, and midget armies; all without ever explaining how they prepare for such things with any more efficiency or practicality. But what about things that are workable in SD? Should it just be relegated to an occasional speech, or is it all just a waste of time?

    Things like baiting your opponent/assailant while in a hostile argument by putting your hands in a neutral, calming position, while ready to fake a calming gesture into a palm to the face or kick to the groin?

    Or how about padding up dog bros. style, and defending against someone with a stick/blunt object barehanded?

    Granted 90-95% of your time should be working live techniques bare-handed on a single opponent so that you learn to fight, but for those who truly are looking to teach SD, is it that unreasonable to account for the rest?
    STFU and train!!!
  4. ysc87 is offline
    ysc87's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    LA/CA ; STL/MO
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 2:13pm


     Style: crapp-lawl-ing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    My question now is, how much should be dedicated to that? We all know the typical BS RBSD trolls who disparage Live arts because they supposedly don't prepare for dirty/foul tactics, broken glass, lava, multiples, firearms, grenades, tanks, and midget armies; all without ever explaining how they prepare for such things with any more efficiency or practicality. But what about things that are workable in SD? Should it just be relegated to an occasional speech, or is it all just a waste of time?

    Things like baiting your opponent/assailant while in a hostile argument by putting your hands in a neutral, calming position, while ready to fake a calming gesture into a palm to the face or kick to the groin?

    Or how about padding up dog bros. style, and defending against someone with a stick/blunt object barehanded?

    Granted 90-95% of your time should be working live techniques bare-handed on a single opponent so that you learn to fight, but for those who truly are looking to teach SD, is it that unreasonable to account for the rest?
    well, personally-- i think at any non-rbsd only schools, it should be relegated to an occasional speech, followed by a very short compliant-partner drill, then live drilling until the student can pull it off under pressure. out of experience and talking to the occasional 'rbsd troll,' their problems are focused primarily on the fact that they rely primarily on countering the opponent, and when these people don't drill against live/resisting opponents, countering becomes a moot point, because a keen (or at least somewhat decent) sense of timing is required for such techniques, as with many of the techs. they teach at most BS schools. practice under pressure + lots of it = better timing. most of the keyboard warriors that call themselves RBSD users have never practiced the precise movements outside of in front of a mirror or against someone that is told "do this, and i'll counter you, and you'll just stand there as i attack."

    or say a system like krav maga, where 1/2 the schools are just big cardio workout centers, 1/4 are renamed kickboxing schools, and the remaining quarter do something somewhat related to actual live drilling, most of the students just do not have the mentality required for the system, i guess just out of the fact that certain types of people pick certain types of styles. it's the war between those who look for something that's proven itself often vs those who look for something cool and effective sounding. a lot of people are lazy/afraid, and most of the lazy/afraid people fall into the latter catagory. while a lot of the mma/MT/GJJ guys who started after seeing those arts do fairly well are in the first. a few rare gems of people in rbsd schools who aren't lazy, and don't mind getting a little bruised are the few that actually get anything out of those schools. and at the same time, the lazy folk who go to the mma/mt/jj schools usually aren't any better than the rbsd trolls.

    i guess, in the end, my point is the same as those TMA/RBSD trolls, just with a different reasoning behind it:
    it's more on the person than it is on the style. it's just that the idealogy behind the style may prove to be a crutch more often than not.
  5. rw4th is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 2:28pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Iíd say maybe 2 to 4 hours a month and a few seminars a year on top of your regular training is enough. Itís also important to make sure that your RBSD training is compatible with the MMA oriented skills you practice on a regular basis.

    The contents of this extra training should include things like:

    - Avoidance and de-escalation
    - Pre-contact and contact drills
    - Awareness drills
    - Skills and tactics for dealing with things like sucker punches and surprise attacks, weapons, multiple attackers, crowds, etc.

    There's two main types of self defense situations. Criminal assaults and brawls.
    I donít buy the ďbrawlĒ argument because too many bar fights these days turn into violent confrontation involving weapons when one guy gets his ass beat and tries to even the score. Itís stupid to assume that the guy who wants to start a fight with you in a bar or club isnít willing to **** you up with more then just fists.
  6. Matt W. is offline
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    Community Corrections Officer

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    Spokane, WA
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 3:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Itís stupid to assume that the guy who wants to start a fight with you in a bar or club isnít willing to **** you up with more then just fists.
    And yet crime statistics show that most such encounters do not result in any serious injury.
  7. King Sleepless is offline
    King Sleepless's Avatar

    I am a living legend!

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 3:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Short answer:

    No.
  8. rw4th is offline
    rw4th's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 3:53pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    And yet crime statistics show that most such encounters do not result in any serious injury.
    Please point me towards these statistics.

    My point with all this is that itís not worth getting into a fight just to protect your own fragile ego under the assumption that itís just a ďbrawlĒ and that the person will take their beating like a man and move on.

    Most large cities (including where I live) have gang issues and the dumbass you get into it with in a bar might be waiting for you outside the bar afterwards with a few of his homies and/or some kind of weapon (knife, pipe, chain, whatever). You donít know how the guy you fight will react to the violence or whether he has some kind of mental imbalance.

    Iím not advocating a paranoid elomoresque mentality here, what Iím advocating is common sense in choosing when itís worth fighting and when itís better to just walk away.
  9. Chizilds is offline

    Registered Member

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    Oregon
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 4:30pm


     Style: BJJ - SBGi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    Here's my personal belief, FWIW.

    There's two main types of self defense situations. Criminal assaults and brawls. Each has a different focus and requires different things. IMO, when most people walk into an MA school and say "I want to be able to defend myself" they mean in a brawl. They mean when a bully at the bar or carnival or in school or wherever gets in their face and shoves them they want to be able to kick that guys ass.

    That's simple. You learn to fight. Best place to learn to fight? Sport combat schools. MMA or a solid grappling or striking art. You learn how to take getting pounded, fighting fundementals like movement, timing, distance, how to hit hard, takedown and avoid takedowns, clinch, etc. Everything you need to kick that bully's butt.

    Criminal assaults are another matter, however. They are more serious, and surviving one actually has very little to do with individual fighting prowess. For this kind of self defense the first and most important thing needed is knowledge. How do criminal assaults happen? What do attackers look for? Where and when do assaults most often take place? You find the answers to those questions (most local LE offer free classes on that stuff) and then YOU DO THE OPPOSITE. You don't act like a likely victim. You avoid putting yourself in situations where assaults are likely to happen. Next you follow some simple steps at trying to become more aware of your surroundings. Don't insulate yourself from the world by jamming your ipod and shoving your nose in a newspaper.

    After that I'd say a basic level of physical fitness is most helpfull. So you can run or resist if you have to. And only then, after all that, should you consider the fighting aspect of self defense (for an assault). And the first aspect to fighting off an assualt in a SHTF situation is being approprately armed. Despite what people claim, you can't learn to disable any attacker with your barehands in a 4 hour seminar. But you can learn how to pepper spray the crap out of someone or deploy a stun gun. And it is a lot easier for a 95 pound woman to learn to shoot a gun that will stop a 250 lb man than it is for her to train MA to a level where she can defeat that same guy.

    Only then do you train unarmed fighting. And that's simple. You learn to fight. Best place to learn to fight? Sport combat schools. MMA...
    Nice!!! dude do you mind if I give this info to some of my less educated friends?

    +rep! baby!
  10. Chizilds is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 4:34pm


     Style: BJJ - SBGi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by rw4th
    Please point me towards these statistics.

    My point with all this is that itís not worth getting into a fight just to protect your own fragile ego under the assumption that itís just a ďbrawlĒ and that the person will take their beating like a man and move on.

    Most large cities (including where I live) have gang issues and the dumbass you get into it with in a bar might be waiting for you outside the bar afterwards with a few of his homies and/or some kind of weapon (knife, pipe, chain, whatever). You donít know how the guy you fight will react to the violence or whether he has some kind of mental imbalance.

    Iím not advocating a paranoid elomoresque mentality here, what Iím advocating is common sense in choosing when itís worth fighting and when itís better to just walk away.
    but on that same line of thinking... if the first encounter is over with.... and a second ensues outside... can't we use one method for one encounter, and the second for outside the bar if he is waiting? I really don't see the need to John Rambo everyone JUST INCASE he comes after me later. Where I am from, you can usually understand the point at which it will escilate from one type to the other. So if he decides to have round two... you adapt to that situation as it calls.
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