6/07/2007 11:11am, #11
I'm on the fence about this, I think the Liddell/Rampage fight was stopped too early. You can see Lidell acting pissed that is was stopped. But I don't know if there is a good compromise between fighter safety and letting the fighter work out of getting GnP'd from mount.
6/07/2007 11:20am, #12Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
Not saying some of them haven't been stopped to early but, I think it is smart.
Right now they are fighting the whole human cockfighting stigma. Best way is to not let what happened in boxing's prime go down in MMA.
IMO in the grand scheme its hard to complain (state/federal/governing bodies) when people don't take a million shots to the head.
6/07/2007 11:22am, #13
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Rewatch Chuck just after the knock down, and just before Big John jumps in. You'll see he's attempting to protect himself, albeit unsuccessfully, with his hands in the air flailing. Then Rampage lands a pretty clean punch, and Chuck's arms go limp.
They don't get lowered, they absolutely drop - from his fingers to his shoulders they are completely loose, and his head drops back from being slightly raised to on the mat. That is the moment that Big John jumps in - and the moment he should. The instant a fighter stops defending himself, by rule, the fight is over.
If you keep watching Chuck's face, you'll see Chuck start to come to. From the glazed, unfocused look in his eye, its clear that he's been out and still doesn't know where he is. He isn't looking at Jackson or Big John, he's just staring somewhere into the crowd. He then starts asking what happened.
If you are in the middle of caged octagon, the ref is lying over you, and you are staring into space asking what happened, it wasn't stopped too soon.
The other controversial stop involved Din Thomas's win. When he had a clinical arm bar, about to snap the arm.
In short, I'm not sure what the early stoppage questions are about.
6/07/2007 11:22am, #14Originally Posted by sempaiman
What about Thai Boxers and Kickboxers? Tons of them in MMA. Does a Muay Thai fighter getting KOed quickly count as a refutation of your position? Or does it have to be a standard western boxer, who has NEVER been kicked or kneed in the head.
Here's what I think:
1) The gloves make it worse; against an accurate puncher, unconsciousness becomes much more likely. Additionally, the gloves are smaller, and with less padding your blocks will not absorb as much damage, nor do your hands provide as effective a shield as they take up less space. Your opponents hands are also smaller targets to deflect. The reduced surface area of the object applying the force, coupled with less padding and protection, and less defensive coverage from your gloves, means you'll get hit cleanly more often and with less dispersed force. That equals more KOs.
2) MMA allows a fight to end naturally once one fighter displays the ability to render his opponent defenseless, even briefly. A knockdown in boxing often renders a fighter briefly unconscious, and if strikes were allowed against downed opponents, the fight would end immediately. That's not "sporting" in boxing, so they stand the downed fighter back up and give him eight to ten seconds to recover. If MMA did that, the result would be more brain damage.
3) You have more variables to worry about in MMA, and can't display the same level of pure head defense. Sure, you'll try to keep your hands up. But in the clinch, when your body is getting punished by knees (quite a lot more power than body punches), you'll drop your hands faster than Franklin did in his fight with Silva. Sometimes guys fake shots to get your hands down, then throw an overhand right. And sometimes you have to drop or split your hands briefly to appropriately execute a shot, and are vulnerable to quick knees or other counter-tactics.
4) MMA has more to worry about from regulators and political opponents, and so places the safety of its fighters first. In boxing, a guy can die and it's not a huge deal that will change the political landscape. If a fighter dies in a sanctioned MMA match anytime soon, we're going to see some fireworks.
Last edited by kohadril; 6/07/2007 11:25am at .
6/07/2007 11:29am, #15Originally Posted by theword
6/07/2007 11:34am, #16
You motherfuckers are the assholes who booed herb dean when he stopped ortiz-shamrock 2. Monday morning refs who aren't in the ring and think that the camera tells the whole story. You really think that people should be pounded beyond the point where their brains are completely shut off. Well if you want to see fighters live to fight another day you would appreciate the refs coming in to protect their safety.
I am not saying that there has never been an early stoppage in the sport, but you implying that a large number of stoppages are early is just plain retarded. Please go buy a felony fights video or cockfighting and stop watching MMA.
Liddell was "angry" because he just got knocked down and knew he was going to lose his belt. In the post fight interviews he had no problem whatsoever with the stoppage. In the heat of battle you're not qualified to judge your own ability to fight back, otherwise there would be no need for TKO's.
6/07/2007 12:40pm, #17
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
- TKD, MT, KEMPO
That's all this sport needs is a few fatalities, head cases, etc. These guys have yet to make a pay day that could let them retire in style, a la DeLaHoya, etc, so there is really no reason for them to get hurt like that. Most of these fighters below Liddell etc, make what a top level salesman makes, every year, with medical, dental, and a 401k. Let alone some people get stock bonuses. Sure, Jackson or Cro Cop get huge advertising money, but a lot of these guys are going to wind up pouring concrete in some back yard, if they didn't get a degree. Wasn't Paul Varelans bouncing at a strip club. there are a bunch of fringe benefits while everything is going well, but I know a guy at my gym who just fought at a show in Sacramento and made $ 1600.00. There's no reason he should be getting brain damage. Another thing is, if people don't stop the fights and everyone that goes in knows there is very serious risk of getting brain damage every time he fights, because they don't want to stop too "early", you're going to have a hard time getting people to do this. At least people that are smart, skilled fighters. I suppose you could get the "tough man" types, but who wants to see that? You can wait till the end of the evening at most nightclubs to see two tools flail at reach other.
6/07/2007 1:28pm, #18
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- West coast
- Mixed-Up Martial Arts
My My are we touchy on this subject. You can fight with your chin tucked in and still protect against kick and a shoot. It just takes discipline and training. You could see a lot of the guys have bad habits like pulling back with head as they punch and and some even ducking their head. I'm not saying they suck at punching just need more time working on it. Having legitimate boxing coaches would be a start in developing proper punching techniques. Having retired kickboxers as boxing coaches does not cut it. I'm not saying I disagree with all early stops, but I just would like to see fights last longer. I'm not sure how that could be done......
6/07/2007 1:52pm, #19
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- between the moutains and some sagebrush
- Kick Boxing
I'm sure you'd just be tickled pink to watch a guy die in the ring wouldn't you???? Do you even compete or are you one of those fuckwads who sits back, turns on the UFC and can tell all his drinking buddies what every fighter is doing wrong?????Amateur MMA record: 8-3-1
Pro MMA record: 3-1
Status: Semi retarded... I mean retired
6/07/2007 2:02pm, #20
I think Herb Dean could have waited another 2 seconds to stop the Ortiz - Shamrock fight, but it wasn't a ridiculously early stoppage by any means and had I been closer to the action (in the ring with them like Herb) I might have seen it exactly the same way. But there sure aren't a plethora of innapropriately early stoppages going on. There are a lot of SHORT fights happening recently as the sport matures and the offense outpaces the defense technique wise. As more guys pick up stuff like Crazy Monkey and get their boxing better integrated with their styles you'll see long fights again. It's like baseball, some years the pitchers seem to be unstoppable and every game ends 3 to 2, while other years the hitters are putting every ball out of the park and the scores are all 15 to 11 and stuff. We'll start seeing longer stand up fights soon I promise. And the ground game will start to get more technical again soon as well since people will be adapting to the current environment and training specifically to deal with the sprawl and brawl styles and such. It's the evolution of the sport. Quit your whining.