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  1. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 10:45am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as the streching advice and pilates and ballet, you are right, they are good for the hips. But I completely disagree with this statement.

    isolate the muscles you wanna work

    yeah... you can do squats, lunges, and deadlifts... but you can also cheat yourself by using other muscles to compensate for the weak ones around your knees. what you want to do is target the ones that specifically support the knee. the
    I think this an outdated way of thinking that uses flawed thinking. After all, how do you possibly isolate on just the muscles that that specifically support the knee? What 'weak muscles around your knee' are you referring to anyway? How would you work them without working the major muscle groups of the leg, which have to do some work together or you're knee won't bend at all?

    Just look at your recommended excerise to isolate, how does this excercise at all target anything better than a squat or lunge? How do you step up on anything without using you're quad's, butt and hips muscles, which I'm assuming are the muscles you say you are compensating with.

    And what is a step up if not a lunge anyway? When you lunge, you step forward lifting one leg a little, bend you're knee, then push up back up with one leg. When you do a step up, you step forward a little less, step up a little more then push back up with one leg.

    I'm not saying its not good excercise for the knees, I'm just saying you aren't doing any isolating with it - which isn't any appropriate method to strength knees even if you could.

    You're knees are involved in every real life motion made with the legs, which always involve major muscle groups, during every practical activity performed. They never work in any sort of isolation - why even attempt to excercise them in such a manner? The strength of the knee always is used in conjunction with other body parts, so train it that way.

    You can target body sections (core, legs, upper body), and even areas (shoulders, butt, chest, quads) but no motion the human body makes uses just one muscle. And no motion with one of the major joints don't invovle major muscle groups.
  2. fes_fsa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 11:13am


     Style: drunken bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    I think this an outdated way of thinking that uses flawed thinking. After all, how do you possibly isolate on just the muscles that that specifically support the knee?
    what a silly question. how do you isolate your bicep when doing a curl?

    What 'weak muscles around your knee' are you referring to anyway?
    vastus lateralis, vastus medialis, rectus femorus, soleus, and the tibialis anterior.

    How would you work them without working the major muscle groups of the leg, which have to do some work together or you're knee won't bend at all?
    did i say you WOULDN'T use them?

    Just look at your recommended excerise to isolate, how does this excercise at all target anything better than a squat or lunge?
    you're using the muscles in the front of the leg. not cheating with the larger muscles in the back of the leg.

    And what is a step up if not a lunge anyway? When you lunge, you step forward lifting one leg a little, bend you're knee, then push up back up with one leg. When you do a step up, you step forward a little less, step up a little more then push back up with one leg.
    it is nothing like a lunge--if you're doing it correctly, your THIGHS are almost parallel the entire time. there is no stepping forward.

    You're knees are involved in every real life motion made with the legs, which always involve major muscle groups, during every practical activity performed. They never work in any sort of isolation - why even attempt to excercise them in such a manner?
    to prevent injury.

    The strength of the knee always is used in conjunction with other body parts, so train it that way.
    redundant.

    again, i didn't say you WOULDN'T be working any major muscle groups.
  3. HongKongFukYu is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 11:37am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Besides squats I'd add kettlebell swings. They definitely build "hip snap" (and consequently hip strength), leg strength and work your core very well.
    Last edited by HongKongFukYu; 6/08/2007 11:44am at .
  4. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 1:02pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what a silly question. how do you isolate your bicep when doing a curl?
    Its not a silly question, asking how you isolate what you call the weak knee muscles is quite relevant when that was what you were suggesting. Isoalting on a bicep with a curl isn't at all like trying to isolate on the 'weakl muscles' that support the knee by doing backward step ups, its not a fair comparison at all.

    One uses a small amount of weight to train an area of the body that can be isolated fairly well, but is responisble for very little real power in movements people really do (other than lifting a beer). The other invovles lifting the entire body on a snigle leg - a motion shifting the body's entire weight using a large number of muscles, performed thousands of times a day. Comparing the two motions apples and oranges. The question on how you isolate on weak muscles of the knee isn't silly, comparing the mechanics and weights involved in stepping up backwards to the mecahnics of a bicep curl is.

    And I'm not saying curls are useless or stupid. But the biceps aren't a major muscle group. The quadriceps are. Which gets to the next point.

    vastus lateralis, vastus medialis, rectus femorus, soleus, and the tibialis anterior
    These are what you call the weak muscles of the knee? You listed most of the muscles that make up the the quadriceps and calf muscles. That's hardly a set of weak muscle group. I don't know of any trainer or doctor that would call the quads a "weak muscle of the knee." Might want to wikipedia those. The soleus entry actually says "They are powerful muscles and are vital in walking, running, and dancing."

    did i say you WOULDN'T use them?
    This is exactly my point. Isoalting suggests that you wouldn't, that instead you work them independently. Which for any body part really can't be done The calves and biceps are almost exceptions, but still involve working more muscles than are being 'isolated,' so they aren't really exceptions.

    My argument is this can't be done at all for the knees, which was your recommendation. Recommending excercises that don't isolate for an area of the body that really can't be isolated on with the goal of isolation is a poor application of already misleading terminology.

    Here you're saying that although you can do squats, lunges and deadlifts, what you should really do is isolate on the 'weak knee muscles.' You're counterpoint to my arguement that it can't be done because it takes so many muscles to move the knee is that you would be using other muscles, while isolating. Thats why the term isolating is a pet peeve.
    I'm not suggesting that 'isolating' isn't used in lifting, the entire weight machine industry is built on the concept. Nor am I saying that you're foolish. My point is its a term that has almost no truth or relevance in general, and certainly doesn't with regards to improving the knees.

    you're using the muscles in the front of the leg. not cheating with the larger muscles in the back of the leg.
    Not really, you're working the quads, which are on the front. But you are also working on the calves, which are on the back. And the gluts too. Yeah, the quads do the most work, but the other still do a ton of work here too. Which is why I say you just can't actually isolate muscles.

    it is nothing like a lunge--if you're doing it correctly, your THIGHS are almost parallel the entire time. there is no stepping forward.
    Then how do you get you're foot off the stool? Admittly, I'm being a smart alec here, but you see my point? No matter what, you're stepping forward at some point. And no matter what, there is bending. And to make it clear, its a great excercise, and doesn't stress the knees as much. But even on stairs instead of a stool, you are making the same motion as the 'return' on a lunge. If you don't want to call it a lunge, fine. But it is closer to one than you think.

    to prevent injury.
    How does moving in isolation during training prevent injury if you never move in isolation outside of training? Not that you can actually move in isolation.

    again, i didn't say you WOULDN'T be working any major muscle groups.
    Then how are you isolating?
  5. fes_fsa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 2:01pm


     Style: drunken bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    Its not a silly question, asking how you isolate what you call the weak knee muscles is quite relevant when that was what you were suggesting. Isoalting on a bicep with a curl isn't at all like trying to isolate on the 'weakl muscles' that support the knee by doing backward step ups, its not a fair comparison at all.

    One uses a small amount of weight to train an area of the body that can be isolated fairly well, but is responisble for very little real power in movements people really do (other than lifting a beer). The other invovles lifting the entire body on a snigle leg - a motion shifting the body's entire weight using a large number of muscles, performed thousands of times a day. Comparing the two motions apples and oranges. The question on how you isolate on weak muscles of the knee isn't silly, comparing the mechanics and weights involved in stepping up backwards to the mecahnics of a bicep curl is.
    my point was the isolation.

    when you do a standing bicep curl, do you really believe that all you're working are your biceps? several major muscle groups come into play just to stabilize your body.

    These are what you call the weak muscles of the knee? You listed most of the muscles that make up the the quadriceps and calf muscles. That's hardly a set of weak muscle group. I don't know of any trainer or doctor that would call the quads a "weak muscle of the knee." Might want to wikipedia those. The soleus entry actually says "They are powerful muscles and are vital in walking, running, and dancing."
    did i say they were weak? you came at me with that "weak muscles of the knee" nonsense. reread the thread yourself. i simply suggested exercises that strengthen the muscles i listed that help to SUPPORT the knee.

    This is exactly my point. Isoalting suggests that you wouldn't, that instead you work them independently.
    it suggests it, but it doesn't necessarily make it so.

    My argument is this can't be done at all for the knees, which was your recommendation.
    o rly? why don't you google "knee pain exercises" and you can be sure to find several health sites dedicated to exercising the muscles "AROUND the knee" (<----my words, which you like to misquote).


    as for the rest of your post.... you're arguing semantics here, guy.

    feel free to take my exercise suggestions with a grain of salt.

    i'm just a little dancing filipino girl.
  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 3:55pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    my point was the isolation.
    I know, which is why I asked how to isolate on the knees. Instead of explaining how, you called it a silly question, using the biceps as an example as how to isolate. I said it wasn't a fair comparison, and explained why.

    when you do a standing bicep curl, do you really believe that all you're working are your biceps?
    No, I don't. Which I clearly stated above, when I said biceps aren't really an exception to the rule that you can't isolate on muscles. But at least saying curls isolate on biceps is an arguablly relevant description, if not entirely accurate.

    did i say they were weak? you came at me with that "weak muscles of the knee" nonsense. reread the thread yourself. i simply suggested exercises that strengthen the muscles i listed that help to SUPPORT the knee.
    Whoa, calm down. I havent "come at you" with anything. And I have reread the thread. You said:

    yeah... you can do squats, lunges, and deadlifts... but you can also cheat yourself by using other muscles to compensate for the weak ones around your knees. what you want to do is target the ones that specifically support the knee.
    The way I read that is you can use the stronger leg muscles to compensate for weak ones, the way you can cheat and use you're entire back on curls instead of the relatively weak forearms and biceps. Was I an idiot for reading it that way? I don't think so. Is that what you meant? Now that you explained, no, it wasn't.

    But not knowing for sure what you meant and not being an M.D. I asked, specfically,

    What 'weak muscles around your knee' are you referring to anyway?
    because I didn't understand what you were talking about. You're response was not to state, "I don't mean their are muscles around the knee that are weak compared to ____, I mean strengthen the muscles that support the knees," which would have clarifed it for me.

    You instead quoted my question 'what weak muscles around the knees are you referring to?' verbatim, then listed the medical names for the specific muscles that constitute the quads and calves as your answer, with no other explanation. So yeah, you did say they were weak, becaue when asked point blank what were the weak muscles around the knee, that was you're answer. Was I too harsh in my reply? Yes, and I apoligize, I certainly came across as alot more of a dick than I intended to or try to be. I could have and should have been a lot more polite in making my point.

    Fine, you weren't saying that they are weak muscles. Fine, you meant strengthen the muscles that support the knee. Fine, its my fault I misunderstood you're first point. But I did ask further before I said anything, or got onto you, then was given an answer isn't the clearer explaination you gave now.

    o rly? why don't you google "knee pain exercises" and you can be sure to find several health sites dedicated to exercising the muscles "AROUND the knee"
    I never said you can't excercise muscles around the knee, or do things to help improve knee pain. That's why I agreed with PirateJon's recommendation to the OP for squats and deadlifts. And why I said you had some good streching examples. I said you can't isolate on muscles around the knee, because you can't move the knee without working almost every muscle in the leg. The reverse step-up you mentioned is the case in point.

    (<----my words, which you like to misquote).
    Where have I misquoted you?

    as for the rest of your post.... you're arguing semantics here, guy.
    Uh, yeah, I am. This is hardly a news flash to me. That's why I said regarding isolation "My point is its a term that has almost no truth or relevance in general, and certainly doesn't with regards to improving the knees." But semantics are relevant when the terms are misleading.

    it suggests it, but it doesn't necessarily make it so
    Yeah, that's why its a bad term with no real meaning that doesn't really help people to tell them "isolate" on this, or "isolate" on that. Because what it sounds like when someone says 'isolate' isn't actally isolating anything.

    Its use also contributes to the myth that more limited excercises on machines with restricted ranges of motion are better for building muscle mass and strength than traditional free weight excercises like squats, deadlifts, powercleans and military presses. Which they don't. Or that they prevent or reduce injuires, which they don't - they just don't cause injury while on the machines. When you have no joint strength, moderately strong muscles, and no sense of projecting strength in three dimensions, that's when you get hurt - and usually worse.

    feel free to take my exercise suggestions with a grain of salt.
    You're excercises are great. I never said they weren't. I do Pilates at home, and if I had more time and money (single Dad), I'd being doing ballet too, since my poorest fitness area have always been balance and flexibility. And the reverse step-up is a great excercise for the legs and knees, and I already do them on occasion.

    As far as the little dancing filipino girl, do you do ballet yourself?
  7. fes_fsa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 4:33pm


     Style: drunken bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it's alright, Jhemsley.

    being out of practice for so long has rendered my debate-fu skills weak. the flesh is willing but the mind is soft and spongy. ;)

    The way I read that is you can use the stronger leg muscles to compensate for weak ones, the way you can cheat and use you're entire back on curls instead of the relatively weak forearms and biceps.
    this IS what i meant. maybe i just suck at getting my point across? anyway...with a normal step up... along with the quads... you're working the muscles from the ass all the way down the back of the thigh--that's alot of muscle. when you do it in reverse, yeah... you use the back of the leg... but if you feel what muscles are being used, you'll notice that the focus is more on the quads around the knee--any flexing you feel on the back of the thigh occurs about mid-way and not all the way up to the buttocks. it's harder to cheat like you can with squats and lunges.

    Where have I misquoted you?
    when you kept calling them "weak knee muscles" like that's what i called them. and yeah. i replied to you without clarifying what i meant--i'm not gonna even attempt to correct assholism. not in the health threads, anyway.

    But semantics are relevant when the terms are misleading.
    what are you? a health lawyer for the AMA? you gonna go over medical jurisprudence with me?

    As far as the little dancing filipino girl, do you do ballet yourself?
    i did it when i was a kid... then seriously as a teenager, along with pointe and lyrical jazz. then i took up bellydancing as an adult and did it professionally in a troupe in Los Angeles, in a showcase in San Pedro, and as a regular job, right up until i got pregnant with my 2nd kid.

    i haven't danced in 3 years.
  8. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 9:05pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    this IS what i meant. maybe i just suck at getting my point across?
    Actually let me restate it another way. Relative to the back muscles, the biceps are weak. Relative to pretty much all the large muscles in fact, the biceps are weak. What I thought you were saying in all of that is that the quads and calves are weak compared to most large muscles (like the back and chest) the way biceps are weak compared to the most large muscles. When you first said 'you can also cheat yourself by using other muscles to compensate for the weak ones around your knees. what you want to do is target the ones that specifically support the knee' I thought you were saying that the quads are inherently weaker than other muscles the way biceps are inherently weaker, and could be targeted (a better word) the way biceps can be. That's why I wanted some clarification on what weak muscles you were talking about, and why the list of the quads threw me into left field. Does that clear up the confusion some?

    when you kept calling them "weak knee muscles" like that's what i called them. and yeah. i replied to you without clarifying what i meant--i'm not gonna even attempt to correct assholism. not in the health threads, anyway.
    You said exactly 'the weak ones around your knees.' I asked what the 'What 'weak muscles around your knee' are you referring to anyway?' You provided a list of quads and calf muscles. 'Weak muscles' comments were based on the list.

    Now, as stated above we both misunderstood each others comments at different points, and I'm more at fault since I was the one who had the first misunderstanding. Certainly, each of us were on different pages, you answered a much different question than you thought was asked, and vice versa. I wasn't misquoting you. I just though you meant something entirely different by weak muscles.

    what are you? a health lawyer for the AMA? you gonna go over medical jurisprudence with me?
    No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    Seriously I think its a big problem that in the fitness world people talk about 'isolating' and build entire workouts and types of equipment with the goal of isolation, when that isn't happening. Fitness is the only place where something is working in isolation when a group of muscles does only a little work than another part of the body (and sometimes less work if its a weak muscle group that is being 'isolated')

    Take youre excercise, you're description is dead on about the focus. But if you did fifty of them, you're legs get a good work everywhere, even though the quads get the most, the legs worked all together the whole time. Nothing worked independently or in isolation.

    So people do all these different weird looking machines in the gym isolating this and that, but never develop a full range of motion that makes the body work in practical ways. They have weak tendons and ligaments, and risk ripping things picking up a box of books because their muscles don't work together well because they did these strange machines that never develop stable joints trying to isolate them and never developed practical strength and strong joints.

    By the way, the step-up you recommended doesn't fall in the 'strange excercises' category. Its a motion done all the time in basketball, football, martial arts, dance, helping a buddy move, etc.




    Its like a lot of ineffective martial arts that get attacked because they are based on theories that don't pass the reality test. Isolation doesn't pass the reality test.

    did it when i was a kid
    I thought so. Your knee excercises sounded like some kind of warm up I saw my nieces doing for dance. I don't know if that's where you got those from, but the description sounded familiar.
  9. Marrt is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 10:12pm


     Style: default std

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    By the way, the step-up you recommended doesn't fall in the 'strange excercises' category. Its a motion done all the time in basketball, football, martial arts, dance, helping a buddy move, etc.

    .
    Just be careful of how high your step is, otherwise you'll end up applying as much shear force to your knee joint as you would have with squats.
  10. fes_fsa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 11:46pm


     Style: drunken bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hi JHemsley--i don't want you to think that i'm ignoring you or that i walked away from your post... but i really don't feel like debating/discussing this with you anymore. it's not because i'm annoyed with the length or detail of your posts. i only come to the health folder to offer help as best as i can to those who need it. not to debate or nitpick with other posters... and it was pretty silly of me to take you on BECAUSE i don't debate.

    we both agree that i didn't give bad advice here... and i'll concede that you're probably right about all the little details. i'm just crappy at wording my posts and it's easy for me to look silly (i'm a the self-proclaimed clueless and ditzy girl of bullshido).

    anyway, it was nice meeting you. if you're ever in YMAS, LLL, or Homeland Security... i'll be sure to stop by and say hello to you. :)
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