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  1. Te(V)plar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 9:54pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fedeykin



    and your the person who decides what is relevent? the fact is that more and more mental aspects are being discovered. the importance of the mind in western medicine is increasing drasticaly.
    if you ask people who have had terminal diseases and survived they will tell you that it was a mental battle as much as a medical battle.
    And this isn't anything new. This is all very relevant to medicine. The fact you're acting like any of this is a revelation makes me wonder where the heck you claim to have received medical training (or that you're currently 80 years old) Crap like focusing your chi is not relevant to fighting and people's time should not be wasted with it.





    yes real and empirical are good things. and most things even the things that appear to be mystical can be explained empircialy. the fact is that science is a very young idea and is by no means complete. also any significantly advanced scientific idea or technology will seem as magic or mysticism to a more primitive mind.

    all mystical aspects of spiritual training do in fact have empirical explainations. the question is if OUR science is advanced enough to understand it.
    Do you even realize how contradictory this is? So science is very young but science that is extremely advanced will come across as mysticism (btw, nice going with the cliche C. Clarke quote)? There's no point in adding useless extras to whatever you're doing. Adding philosophy and spirituality for the sake thereof to something with the intended effect of making you a better fighter only detracts from it. To say because visualization works or the physical aspects of yoga work doesnt validate throwing in whatever the hell you want. Th spiritual/philosophical aspects in tai chi/aikido etc only serve to detract from their usefulness as a fighting system. Instead of going out and banging these guys are trying to pigeon-hole their technique into metaphors about circular motion for christ's sake.



    they arent contortions, they are movements and positions specificaly designed after spiritual ideas such as prana and kundulini that in effect make their bodies healthyer. and yes there are empirical explinations for the results that are achieved through the practice. the problem is that most people view the "mystical" ideas and the empirical results are unrelated. the ideas that seem mystical to you are how the people who invented these excercises understood the realities of the training several thousand years ago.
    Look, you can put all the window-dressing and fancy schmancy terms on it you want. Yogis get more flexible from stretching their bodies. Being spiritual about it doesnt make them anymore flexible than gymnasts.


    the energy that your body gains through deep breathing, empiricaly caused by the oxygen levels in your blood, muscles and brain was understood as prana 5000 years ago. to those people the idea of molecules of O2 floating through the air would seem just as mystical as the idea of prana does to you.
    Don't give me this intellectually dishonest bullshit. Indians from 5000 years ago have nothing even remotely approaching the level of understanding regarding oxygen that we enjoy now. Even if they regarded our understanding as "mysticism" it would be rooted in ignorance of chemistry and the entire scientific method in general. Their understanding is rooted around developing an explanation for a phenomenon they witnessed in their daily experiences.
  2. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 10:36pm


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

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    ---------How can I not put Tai chi and Aikido in the same boat? They are both internal and passive martial arts haivng the vchi bullshit attached to them, for the most part. Of course there are schools of each of these arts that don't teach chi, but you know what I mean. They both have wrist locks and throws, right? Especially Aikido. Hell, the Tang Soo Do dojo I used to train at (it's still there) is called "Summit Karate Club". TSD is not karate, but it is VERY similar. Moreso to eachother than Aikido and Tai Chi Chuan are.-----


    tai chi is different. any work between 2 people is non-compliant(push-hands). while aikido is mostly just a dance between 2 compliant training partners.

    about chi bullshit.. refer to my last posts especialy the part about prana and oxygen levels.
  3. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 10:45pm


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    -----------------And this isn't anything new. This is all very relevant to medicine. The fact you're acting like any of this is a revelation makes me wonder where the heck you claim to have received medical training (or that you're currently 80 years old) Crap like focusing your chi is not relevant to fighting and people's time should not be wasted with it.---------


    its nothing new, no. but it is gaining in acceptance and importance. i studied medicine at the university of brasilia. i still study there, but i study something else now.

    i will say once again.. focusing the chi might sound like mysticism to people who dont know wtf is meant by it. it is an old and outdated term, and there is nothing mystical about it.




    --------Look, you can put all the window-dressing and fancy schmancy terms on it you want. Yogis get more flexible from stretching their bodies. Being spiritual about it doesnt make them anymore flexible than gymnasts.------

    the thing is that most modern day gymnasts use technqiues derived from yoga. yes yogies get more flexible by stretching, just like you and me. however adding practices like deep relaxed breathing while stretching increases the effectiveness of the stretches. if you dont beleive me just try it out!



    --------Instead of going out and banging these guys are trying to pigeon-hole their technique into metaphors about circular motion for christ's sake-----


    there is no question that there are many many stupid people. and that these stupid people abuse, misuse and misunderstand anthing to do with the concepts of training, spirituality, fighting etc.


    ---------------Don't give me this intellectually dishonest bullshit. Indians from 5000 years ago have nothing even remotely approaching the level of understanding regarding oxygen that we enjoy now. Even if they regarded our understanding as "mysticism" it would be rooted in ignorance of chemistry and the entire scientific method in general. Their understanding is rooted around developing an explanation for a phenomenon they witnessed in their daily experiences.----------


    you'd be surprised what indians knew 5000 years ago. if you read the old sutras etc you will see that modern science is catching up and PROOVING many things that they said, just with different terms and usualy better explainations.
    this is especialy true in the field of physics, cosmology and even in a lesser degree medicine.
  4. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 10:48pm


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

    --
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    ------------. Even if they regarded our understanding as "mysticism" it would be rooted in ignorance of chemistry and the entire scientific method in general.-----------


    exactly. same way your misunderstanding of prana, chi and all those other seemingly mystic terms are rooted in your ignorance of the subject.(generaly speaking. this is not a comment directed negatively towards you)
  5. Te(V)plar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 10:58pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA

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    Forget it, it's abundantly clear you've earned your flashing pink text.
  6. fightin Penguin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 11:05pm


     Style: ex-wrestler, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fedeykin
    ---------How can I not put Tai chi and Aikido in the same boat? They are both internal and passive martial arts haivng the vchi bullshit attached to them, for the most part. Of course there are schools of each of these arts that don't teach chi, but you know what I mean. They both have wrist locks and throws, right? Especially Aikido. Hell, the Tang Soo Do dojo I used to train at (it's still there) is called "Summit Karate Club". TSD is not karate, but it is VERY similar. Moreso to eachother than Aikido and Tai Chi Chuan are.-----


    tai chi is different. any work between 2 people is non-compliant(push-hands). while aikido is mostly just a dance between 2 compliant training partners.

    about chi bullshit.. refer to my last posts especialy the part about prana and oxygen levels.
    I know Tai Chi is quite different than Aikido, but they have similarities. That is what I was mentioning. And I mentioned that Tang Soo Do (you can add TKD here too) and Karate are more similar to eachother than Tai Chi and Aikido are, I admitted that. People who are ignorant of martial arts may see Aikido and come up with the conclusion that it is some sort of Tai Chi. I am sure we all know people like this.

    And because I mentioned I mentioned TSD, TKD, and karate as being similar, here is an emoticon for 1) my own ammusement and 2) because it fits:

    :triplets:
  7. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/16/2007 1:05am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Te(V)plar
    I do have a problem when said philosophy is being crammed down your throat. A person signing up for krotty or TKD is doing it to learn the martial art (which is heavily regulated and an outsider would readily assume is fairly uniform in curriculumn), not to have some instructor abuse his position of authority and cram his personal beliefs down the throat of his naive students.
    I agree - there's a genuine problem with personal eccentricities being passed off as insight.

    But some traditions see martial arts as more than fighting.

    For example, if you study gendai budo (e.g. Karate), you're signing up for more than fighting. The philosophy is part and parcel of the tradition (young as it is). Many of the founders and masters saw it as essential to the art (e.g. Funakoshi, Yamaguchi, Oyama). Kano's philosophical works are actually quite impressive (he was, after all, a senior educator).

    I'm not suggesting the philosophy's always cogent or illuminating, but it's not necessarily superfluous either.
    Last edited by DAYoung; 6/16/2007 1:19am at .
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  8. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/16/2007 1:07am

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    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedeykin
    meditation is a part of philosphy and definatly a part of spirituality. visualization is a tool for spiritual practice, and it works well. this brings up philosphical issues... how does visualizing your jump make you jump further? how does visualizing your dominance over your oponent help you win?
    There's nothing inherently philosophical about meditation. When philosophers use the word, they usually mean something very different to visualisation, or related forms of relaxation.
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  9. Te(V)plar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2007 6:43pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    I agree - there's a genuine problem with personal eccentricities being passed off as insight.

    But some traditions see martial arts as more than fighting.

    For example, if you study gendai budo (e.g. Karate), you're signing up for more than fighting. The philosophy is part and parcel of the tradition (young as it is). Many of the founders and masters saw it as essential to the art (e.g. Funakoshi, Yamaguchi, Oyama). Kano's philosophical works are actually quite impressive (he was, after all, a senior educator).

    I'm not suggesting the philosophy's always cogent or illuminating, but it's not necessarily superfluous either.
    If the philosophy is part of the package deal, then so be it. I personally disagree with philosophy in my fighting as I find it inefficient and largely pointless, but if it's intrinsic to the art then so be it. I just get annoyed when some pompous ass in Wisconsin feels like forcing his crap into the art because he thinks so highly of himself. You're teaching people how to fight, not leading a cult.
  10. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2007 9:43pm


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

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    --------Forget it, it's abundantly clear you've earned your flashing pink text.------


    yeah it is =)
    and concidering who gave it to me, its almost a badge of honor.

    the mods think exactly like you.. only a bit more on the radical anti-spirituality/philosphy side. you know the type... your at least reasonable in your arguments, although a bit misinformed.


    on a personal note.. for the last few years i have been training at a gym. no spiritual training there at all. its just a regular gym with a nice big tatame(mat) and some skilled gracie barra instructors.
    although i train in meditation tai chi and yoga on my own. and no i didnt learn these arts from a book or video, i had lots of qualified instruction.
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