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  1. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 7:31pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's nothing wrong with philosophy and martial arts. As Errant108 has clearly articulated, the point is that it still has to be martial. No fighting, no martial arts.

    But the more general lesson is that philosophy has a place in many areas of life - here's nothing wrong with applying systematic and informed reflection to the everyday.

    If the area of life you're thinking about happens to be particularly intense and involve a great deal of learning (e.g. fighting), even better.

    But again: fighting isn't sitting around thinking. In fact, not much is (and a good thing too).
    Last edited by DAYoung; 6/15/2007 7:36pm at .
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  2. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 7:32pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Te(V)plar
    If you're spending mat-time ruminating over bullshit philosophy it means you're spending less time training hard. Frankly, when I'm being strangled so hard I start losing my vision, I'm a little too preoccupied to contemplate the universal meaning of rolling on a mat with a sweaty dude.
    Sure. Anyone who's good at thinking knows there's a time and place for it.

    When I fight, I fight.

    When I'm a brilliant philosopher, well...you get the idea.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  3. fedeykin is offline

    Village of Idiocy Resident

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 7:44pm


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ---------Do you believe that the only place you can use your mind to "contemplate the existance and the universe, or at least contemplate the reason to your training" is in a dojo?
    -------------



    no. altough there is nothing wrong with conecting your training to your spiritual practice, and therefore doing both at your dojo.


    ----I am in the latter camp. Ghandi and Mother Theresa were pretty spiritually-enlightened people, for example, but I'll bet their martial arts sucked.----

    eh.. ghandi and mother theresa are not my role models. and its argueable if they had reached any form of enlightenment.




    ----------Adding philosophy adds an aire of BS mysticism and lends bullshido artists a convenient cop-out. Martial arts are about fighting. Period. Any philosophy you pick up from it should be derived from bleeding and sweating on the mat.--------

    martial arts alone are about fighting yes. but martial arts alone is an incomplete path.




    ---------
    I can't imagine how philosophy might be helpful in this.---------

    simple. its called meditation. a spiritual practice that will make you better at most everything you do, including fighting.
  4. Te(V)plar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 7:55pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    There's nothing wrong with philosophy and martial arts. As Errant108 has clearly articulated, the point is that it still has to be martial. No fighting, no martial arts.

    But the more general lesson is that philosophy has a place in many areas of life - here's nothing wrong with applying systematic and informed reflection to the everyday.

    If the area of life you're thinking about happens to be particularly intense and involve a great deal of learning (e.g. fighting), even better.

    But again: fighting isn't sitting around thinking. In fact, not much is (and a good thing too).
    I do have a problem when said philosophy is being crammed down your throat. A person signing up for krotty or TKD is doing it to learn the martial art (which is heavily regulated and an outsider would readily assume is fairly uniform in curriculumn), not to have some instructor abuse his position of authority and cram his personal beliefs down the throat of his naive students. It's even worse when it's done towards children. If you want to do a philosophical inventory of fighting then do it on someone else's time/dime. When you study martial arts you are learning how to fight. This means refining the ability and tactics needed to kick some ass. You're holding me back and wasting my time if you're telling me to stop doing yoga push-ups so I can hear instructor rant about how it's bad for me to armbar nuns.
  5. Te(V)plar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 8:00pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fedeykin

    ----------Adding philosophy adds an aire of BS mysticism and lends bullshido artists a convenient cop-out. Martial arts are about fighting. Period. Any philosophy you pick up from it should be derived from bleeding and sweating on the mat.--------

    martial arts alone are about fighting yes. but martial arts alone is an incomplete path.
    An incomplete path? To what? How incredibly vague and silly. Studying martial arts is a complete path to learning how to kick some ass. You're reading way too much into things. Should med schools add spirituality to their curriculumn, since studying the corticospinal tract and pharmacokinetics is an "incomplete path"?



    ---------
    I can't imagine how philosophy might be helpful in this.---------

    simple. its called meditation. a spiritual practice that will make you better at most everything you do, including fighting.
    Philosophy is NOT meditation. Did Plato meditate? Athletes practice visualization techniques all the time (if that's what you're driving at), it's hardly philosophical. You're mixing all these concepts up into some jumbled new-age mess. Hand in your tie-dyed shirt and focus crystals, you're off the force.
  6. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 8:39pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ----------An incomplete path? To what? How incredibly vague and silly. Studying martial arts is a complete path to learning how to kick some ass. You're reading way too much into things. Should med schools add spirituality to their curriculumn, since studying the corticospinal tract and pharmacokinetics is an "incomplete path"?----------

    an incomplete path to whatever you want to accomplish, even if its just kicking ass. as many people will tell you, you have to kick your own ass before you should go kicking other people's asses.
    and yes, med school should add mental aspects of health into the curriculum. and guess what they ARE. there have been many studies recently using placebos that proved that placebos actualy worked to cure many diseases that people had. interesting huh?
    btw, i was in med school for two semesters before i decided to change courses(due to a study overload).




    -------Philosophy is NOT meditation. Did Plato meditate? Athletes practice visualization techniques all the time (if that's what you're driving at), it's hardly philosophical. You're mixing all these concepts up into some jumbled new-age mess. Hand in your tie-dyed shirt and focus crystals, you're off the force.------

    meditation is a part of philosphy and definatly a part of spirituality. visualization is a tool for spiritual practice, and it works well. this brings up philosphical issues... how does visualizing your jump make you jump further? how does visualizing your dominance over your oponent help you win?

    and to your last point... just because those damn hippies decided to half-assedly adapt some spiritual practices does not make the spiritual practices themselves worthless.


    to give an example: the practice of yoga is a spiritual practice, with lots of philosophy involved. and it will improve your martial arts if you practice it, especialy because asanas make you flexible, give you balance and teach you how to concentrate. these are all skills that are vital in fighting.
    that all is beside the fact that many modern training methods are derived from spiritual practices such as Hatha yoga(which have been around for thousands of years.)
  7. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 8:42pm


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and now you know why i have that super cool flashy pink thing instead of an avatar ;)
  8. Te(V)plar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 8:50pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fedeykin

    an incomplete path to whatever you want to accomplish, even if its just kicking ass. as many people will tell you, you have to kick your own ass before you should go kicking other people's asses.
    and yes, med school should add mental aspects of health into the curriculum. and guess what they ARE. there have been many studies recently using placebos that proved that placebos actualy worked to cure many diseases that people had. interesting huh?
    btw, i was in med school for two semesters before i decided to change courses(due to a study overload).
    The placebo effect is a recent thing? Are you kidding? Controlling for it has been a staple in clinical research for decades. The mental aspect of medicine is taught in medical school to the extent that it is relevant, as it should be. You cant practice medicine properly without knowing about the placebo effect. Aligning my chakra, however, wont cure AIDS nor help my armbar. Medicine is the kind of thing you can study your entire life and never 100% master, there is no need to dilute it with philosophical subtext beyond what is relevant (i.e. medical ethics).




    meditation is a part of philosphy and definatly a part of spirituality. visualization is a tool for spiritual practice, and it works well. this brings up philosphical issues... how does visualizing your jump make you jump further? how does visualizing your dominance over your oponent help you win?

    and to your last point... just because those damn hippies decided to half-assedly adapt some spiritual practices does not make the spiritual practices themselves worthless.
    The reason visualization helps is because it helps people mentally prepare for the stresses involved in the sporting event they're about to do. Furthermore, visualization has been shown by EEG to stimulate many of the brains areas used in the actual act itself. In essence, this is a form of "mental practice" that serves to strengthen dendritic connections. You're attributing mystical interpretations to phenomena that have very real and empirical explanations.

    to give an example: the practice of yoga is a spiritual practice, with lots of philosophy involved. and it will improve your martial arts if you practice it, especialy because asanas make you flexible, give you balance and teach you how to concentrate. these are all skills that are vital in fighting.
    that all is beside the fact that many modern training methods are derived from spiritual practices such as Hatha yoga(which have been around for thousands of years.)
    Do you honestly think it's the spirituality and philosophy in yoga that makes the athletes flexible, or the fact they're contorting their bodies?
    Last edited by Te(V)plar; 6/15/2007 8:52pm at .
  9. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 9:36pm


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    --------------The placebo effect is a recent thing? Are you kidding? Controlling for it has been a staple in clinical research for decades. The mental aspect of medicine is taught in medical school to the extent that it is relevant, as it should be. You cant practice medicine properly without knowing about the placebo effect. Aligning my chakra, however, wont cure AIDS nor help my armbar. Medicine is the kind of thing you can study your entire life and never 100% master, there is no need to dilute it with philosophical subtext beyond what is relevant (i.e. medical ethics).-----------



    and your the person who decides what is relevent? the fact is that more and more mental aspects are being discovered. the importance of the mind in western medicine is increasing drasticaly.
    if you ask people who have had terminal diseases and survived they will tell you that it was a mental battle as much as a medical battle.




    --------The reason visualization helps is because it helps people mentally prepare for the stresses involved in the sporting event they're about to do. Furthermore, visualization has been shown by EEG to stimulate many of the brains areas used in the actual act itself. In essence, this is a form of "mental practice" that serves to strengthen dendritic connections. You're attributing mystical interpretations to phenomena that have very real and empirical explanations.
    -----


    yes real and empirical are good things. and most things even the things that appear to be mystical can be explained empircialy. the fact is that science is a very young idea and is by no means complete. also any significantly advanced scientific idea or technology will seem as magic or mysticism to a more primitive mind.

    all mystical aspects of spiritual training do in fact have empirical explainations. the question is if OUR science is advanced enough to understand it.




    -------Do you honestly think it's the spirituality and philosophy in yoga that makes the athletes flexible, or the fact they're contorting their bodies?---

    they arent contortions, they are movements and positions specificaly designed after spiritual ideas such as prana and kundulini that in effect make their bodies healthyer. and yes there are empirical explinations for the results that are achieved through the practice. the problem is that most people view the "mystical" ideas and the empirical results are unrelated. the ideas that seem mystical to you are how the people who invented these excercises understood the realities of the training several thousand years ago.

    the energy that your body gains through deep breathing, empiricaly caused by the increased oxygen levels in your blood, muscles and brain was understood as prana 5000 years ago. to those people the idea of molecules of O2 floating through the air would seem just as mystical as the idea of prana does to you.
    Last edited by fedeykin; 6/15/2007 9:39pm at .
  10. fightin Penguin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2007 9:39pm


     Style: ex-wrestler, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fedeykin
    -------Tai Chi and Aikido have more to do with philosophy and chi and bullshit like that, especially Tai Chi.-----


    please dont put tai chi and aikido in the same boat. especialy if you have no clue what tai chi is.

    many people choose to practice martial arts as a complement to their spiritual practice. if you choose not thats your problem.

    in my opinion practicing spirituality/philosophy without adding a hands-on approach like martial arts is what is called an armchair philosopher.

    and practicing martial arts without using your mind to contemplate the existance and the universe, or at least contemplate the reason to your training and will to improve yourself is incomplete and will leave you being nothing but a brute.
    How can I not put Tai chi and Aikido in the same boat? They are both internal and passive martial arts haivng the vchi bullshit attached to them, for the most part. Of course there are schools of each of these arts that don't teach chi, but you know what I mean. They both have wrist locks and throws, right? Especially Aikido. Hell, the Tang Soo Do dojo I used to train at (it's still there) is called "Summit Karate Club". TSD is not karate, but it is VERY similar. Moreso to eachother than Aikido and Tai Chi Chuan are.

    And now, a few emoticons for my own ammusement:

    :new_2guns :5flowerfa :kiss: :snorting:
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