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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2007 11:57pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by p00rusan
    I always thought that if you were a traditional Martial Artist it was the main point and the fact that some Martial Arts taught have been passed down from warriors and in a sense we are learning the "Ways of the Warrior". I believe in the importance of philosophy in Martial Arts training but then again i do study philosophy anyway.
    If you actually study philosophy enough to get a degree in it...you learn that the **** people teach in dojangs...IS AN INSULT TO ACTUAL PHILOSOPHY.

    Way of the warrior my ass...
  2. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 12:21pm


     Style: Taekwondo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't spend a lot of time (especially with the adults) so far as our tenets. However I believe that to the best of his ability, an instructor should show by example. There is nothing wrong with having a school creed, especially if you are doing more than paying it lip service.
    Courtesy
    Integrity
    Self-control
    Perseverance
    Indomitable Spirit

    All of the above can be found in tradtional teaching. martiaol arts is not just about how to fight and never has been. There have always been under-lying pinnings of how one can refine themselves by applying certain principles to the way they live.

    In todays UFC MMA's, the focus is on winning in a fight. Not about being polite to everyone you encounter. I believe that sort of training should be for adults only, (in fact it is isn't it?) who like a pitbull, (and I love pits) love it when they are fighting, win or lose. I see nothing wrong with that mindset. Adults are adults and if fighting is what they love I am, all for it. I do however think it is bad form to allow a UFC style fight to be held at a venue where drinking is heavy.......and kids are allowed. Keep the kiddies home, let them watch the fights with their parents. From what I have seen (two I attended were held in a bar so it was not a problem) a couple of the fights have the kids listening to cursing and bad manners (toward the skimpy dressed ladies serving beer) and underage drinking that was obvious to me but apparently not noticed by the off-duty cops hired as security.
    I think if we wish for MMA fights to flourish it should be a given that it either be held in an adult venue or there should be rules strictly enforced keeping out young kids and keeping the beer out of the 18 year olds hands. It would help keep MMA fights moving forward by showing they do not wish to have children present, (or just get rid of the beer) while a bunch of hyped up drunken parents are screaming obscenities all around.

    But then they do allow kids in at official UFC fights don't they? So I am probably not in the majority of that line of thinking.
  3. pittfrog is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 12:38pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't want my kid's martial arts teacher to teach values--instilling values into my kid is my job. What I do want is self defense and exercise, period.
  4. new2bjj is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 12:47pm


     Style: TKD, MT, KEMPO

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are many parents who take their kids in to learn discipline. The thing is, you can learn discipline from being on a swim team or whatever. Now, martial arts schools will take anyone, so, at least you don't have to worry about your kid not getting "cut" or playing defense all the time in soccer. All the philosophy is generally just the instructors personal beliefs, which many times he hands out as fortune cookie wisdom. If you look at TKD/Krotty as a way for a kid to burn off some his hyperactive energy it's great, but that's it.
  5. From Bell2Bell is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 12:57pm


     Style: The Sweet Science

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you actually study philosophy enough to get a degree in it...you learn that the **** people teach in dojangs...IS AN INSULT TO ACTUAL PHILOSOPHY.

    My sentiments exactly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Auvenshine
    In todays UFC MMA's, the focus is on winning in a fight. Not about being polite to everyone you encounter. I believe that sort of training should be for adults only, (in fact it is isn't it?) who like a pitbull, (and I love pits) love it when they are fighting, win or lose. I see nothing wrong with that mindset. Adults are adults and if fighting is what they love I am, all for it.
    You can find kids training hard in wrestling and boxing gyms that are focused on winning, why should any other style be different? They're there to learn the sport, not manners. Hopefully anyone that works with children would try to be a good influence on them but I don't see where it's a coach's place to teach his personal code of ethics to other people's children.




    I do however think it is bad form to allow a UFC style fight to be held at a venue where drinking is heavy.......and kids are allowed. Keep the kiddies home, let them watch the fights with their parents. From what I have seen (two I attended were held in a bar so it was not a problem) a couple of the fights have the kids listening to cursing and bad manners (toward the skimpy dressed ladies serving beer) and underage drinking that was obvious to me but apparently not noticed by the off-duty cops hired as security.

    If it's an 18 and up or 21 and up venue then sure, but I don't see why a kid going to watch a sport fight is any different from them going to see a football or baseball game. It's not like football fans never get drunk or use four letter words.
  6. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 1:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All long term exerted physical training (sports, combat, etc.) requires self discipline and motivation, which are mental/emotional attributes. Hence all such endeavors tend to develop a philosophy of sorts over time/history. This is why you have people who learned the most about "life" from their football coach (or basketball, wrestling, whatever), and you also have coaches and players who go on to do things like motivational speaking. That type of "philosophy" is common and not restricted to MA/combat sports.

    However, there are a couple of phenominon that are unique to MA. One is "the warrior during peacetime". Be it medieval Japan or Europe or anywhere that had a warrior class, those warriors were forced to do some introspection during peacetime. Many, without a current use for their fighting skills, decided to make their training about "something else" or something "more" than just fighting. Hence you end up with the whole self improvement schtick we still see in bullshido MA today. Also, as wars came and went these peacetime musings developed into codes of conduct and honor. E.g. Chivalry in Europe, Bushido in Japan.

    You also have the modern phenominon of people who now practice MA for philosophy. The philosophy has become more important than the fighting skills which spawned it. This is something you do not see in any other sport. No one who plays football ever goes around saying, "Football is not really about playing the sport, it's about becoming a better person!" Even though good coaching has helped generations of young men and women find focus in their lives, sports have always maintained their primary purpose of WINNING at the sport. Not so MA, where many people are not learning how to fight and excuse that fact by saying the MA "aren't really about fighting".

    The problem is, you cannot properly appreciate or understand a philosophy based on fighting if you are not a fighter. The extreme and intense physical training is a main component of developing the proper mental and emotional state that the philosophy was born out of. The fighting in martial arts must always precede any philosophical aspects. And even then, most well adjusted adults already have a philosophy about life, self defense, etc. Which makes philosophy in MA redundant at best. We also are not, generally, using our MA to kill (even when we are suing them to fight). Which means we also lack the need to philosophically justify our actions. Shoot, soldiers need that more than MAists.

    All of which makes some Aikido spouting Musashi a complete joke. Musashi fought in over 60 duels, in many of which he killed his opponent. He had something to philosophize about. A guy who pretends to fight for a couple hours a week has no business putting on those airs.
  7. Krackie is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 7:52pm


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two words . . . informed consent. Make choices and be responsible for them. ooops, smacks of philosophy . . . or common sense.
  8. yanta is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 11:57pm


     Style: Taiji for now, damnitall

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    The problem is, you cannot properly appreciate or understand a philosophy based on fighting if you are not a fighter.
    Just wanted to pull this out of that long post because I think it's an extremely good point.

    It sure seems like many modern "martial artists" glorify the warrior philosophy, whether it's dressed up as The Secret or chi blasts or Budo or whatever, above the actual fighting because it's less painful and messy than all that sweating and bruising and hurting people and dying young in a pointless altercation somewhere.

    I can read Sun Tzu and learn, I can read Ueshiba and learn, I can read Musashi and Machiavelli and Gracian and Homer and all the rest. But the understanding I will get will be only that of a scholar's distant appreciation, no matter how cool my gi looks or how many trophies and certificates and belts I have. We're kidding ourselves if we think twice a week in the strip mall makes us a warrior, no matter how good the training.

    A warrior is someone whose trade is war -- I don't care what the self-help writers say.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying studying martial arts, or even studying philosophy, is pointless. I just think you need to be very clear-headed about what you're really doing, that's all.

    ~yanta
  9. Rashomon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/11/2007 3:57pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by p00rusan
    I always thought that if you were a traditional Martial Artist it was the main point and the fact that some Martial Arts taught have been passed down from warriors and in a sense we are learning the "Ways of the Warrior". I believe in the importance of philosophy in Martial Arts training but then again i do study philosophy anyway.
    What MA style do they teach you in your philosophy classes? My guess is "none". They should be kept seperate.

    The dojo is no place for philosophy or religion. The dojo is a place to learn *martial arts* - to learn how to fight. If you are going to encorporate philocophy, why not encorporate religion... or politics... or economics... or cooking... or auto mechanics? Aren't all of these important things to learn? Sure, they are, but you should learn that **** in their respective schools.
  10. Rashomon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/11/2007 4:02pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=fightin Penguin]I do believe that martial arts dojo should teach (maybe teach isn't the word) but atleast instill character and all that in its students. [QUOTE]

    Why do you believe this? Why "should" they teach these things?

    The only "character" qualities I can see teaching in a fighting curriculum are those that relate to FIGHTING - courage, hard work, discipline, determination, endurance, etc. BUT, teach them as related to FIGHTING, not "being a swell person".
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