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  1. meng_mao is offline
    meng_mao's Avatar

    software engineer

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Westford, MA
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    2,007

    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 8:08am

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Damn right he does pilgrim. Just you wait and see....just you wait.
    I wasn't questioning his motives on that one. 'd just like to strengthen my own arguments in that area, as you can see here:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55619
    post 18 and on.

    Note the timestamps; I started talking about the rules underlying fighting independently.
    52 blocks documentary: arrived

    "Joe Lauzon looks like a quiet, Internet guy..." -- Dana White
  2. kohadril is offline
    kohadril's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Seoul, ROK
    Posts
    551

    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 10:05am


     Style: BJJ, Debate-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    I wasn't questioning his motives on that one. 'd just like to strengthen my own arguments in that area, as you can see here:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55619
    post 18 and on.
    That's what I thought when I wrote my first response. I probably didn't give you the kind of reading list you were looking for, though. The article I'm about to link is one of my favorites on the subject, but I was unable to find an electronic copy until just now, because my original source for it was through Willamette's Academic Journal Search, which I no longer have access to post-graduation. Luckily, I found it via google: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._56027317/pg_1. It also gives some independent verification of social rules being applied to fighting; in this particular paragraph, the author describes how Irish authorities treated fights differently depending upon their perceived fairness:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    In keeping with the recreational aspect of fighting there were rules of combat even in brawls. Though supporting one's comrades was expected, in most cases justice required roughly even sides. Justice Murphy was indignant when he heard a case in which six members of the Callaghan family had assaulted and beaten Bernard Faddin outside a pub on Christmas day. Faddin had been alone except for his sister, and the uneven sides offended the judge who sentenced the Callaghans to sixteen months each. In another case, the quarter sessions chairman laid out the rules as he saw them: "If the fight had been left between Whelan and the prosecutor who at first struck each other, the law would take a very lenient view of the case." But, ganging up was not acceptable. Nor was continuing to pummel a defeated opponent. When John Delaney came to the assistance of a friend who was already winning a fight the judge was incensed "The fact of Delany coming to the other's assistance, and then, as proved, they both kicking him while down rendered the case a very treacherous one." For his treachery Delany was sentenced to twelve months, while his friend who had started the fight was sentenced to only six months.
    There's a discussion of how Irish brawls were much less rules governed than modern sensibilities would allow, but were controlled through the imposition of greater or lesser criminal penalties. Rocks and improvised weapons were generally okay, knives were not. From the article:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    A quarter sessions chairman told jurors: "It was all very well in a fair fight to retaliate with the natural weapons a person was intrusted with, but in the prisoner's case it seemed to be an equal fight, and there appeared to be no necessity for the use of the knife."
    For friendly violence:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Even a knife fight did not necessarily involve hostility. Often the combatants were friends, both before and after the fight. When John Howard testified about being stabbed by John Heffernan in a pub row, he assured the court, "I am not a bit the worse for the stab, Heffernan and I were good friends and are good friends, and if it is pleasing to you I'll now forgive him." Heffernan was duly acquitted. Though John Martin was convicted of stabbing his friend Michael Carroll, Carroll insisted that "Martin and I were the best of friends and that he had given as good as he got." When Patrick O'Donnell was charged with stabbing John Higgins, he assured the judge, "I did not intend to do it sir, Mr. Higgins is one of the best friends I have in the world." The judge replied, 'Well, in the hope that you will learn to treat your friends better in the future, I will only give you four months hard labour.
    On the intent to kill, even in brawls that actually resulted in a death:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    The recreational nature of brawling meant that even when the results were fatal, the legal consequences were rarely serious.(50) Only 8 percent of those convicted of killing in brawls served more than two years. The reluctance to convict and the light sentences were a response to expectations. In 'friendly' brawls both victim and assailant were often genuinely horrified that such a natural activity could have such serious consequences. Since there had been no intention to kill, the deaths were seen as unfortunate accidents.
    But the biggest thing this article adds to this thread is DIRECTLY on the point of the original post: fighting was a massively popular recreational activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by meng mao
    ]Note the timestamps; I started talking about the rules underlying fighting independently.
    I'm by no means the first person to come up with this idea. I feel like I've read discussions about this stuff on Bullshido that existed before I even started posting. I'm just trying to add something to that.
    Last edited by kohadril; 6/07/2007 10:13am at . Reason: Readability and formatting.
  3. Shinkengata is offline

    Registered Member

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    Sep 2004
    Location
    Nor Cal
    Posts
    382

    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 6:35pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,Wrestling,Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good topic.


    I hate fighting. Despise it. Unfortunately, I have an angry and violent nature that I have to contend with. I enjoy testing my skill with someone in my range, and I enjoy pounding on someone less skilled than me (provided they have expressed their belief that they can kick my ass, yadda yadda) but I have no desire to get into a brawl with someone whom I know can cave in my skull in a matter of seconds. I'll do it if I have to, but I'll avoid it if at all possible.
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