what do you guys think of wing chun

[9chambers]

*guest,

My NHB record is not from cage matches. I have defended myself in real life 27 times .. every time against guys who were bigger than myself. I am 5 foot 11 and about 185# - I also traded punches with guys a few times in my youth and once I got sucker punched in school. I got right back up but I guess if you count that as a fight I lost it. That being said, I am a nice guy. I don't go to bars and I stay out of trouble. My fights were not me and my friends picking on some little drunk punk. I was defending my life on a few occasions, defending my idiot friends or dealing with arrogant muscle-heads that think that big = winner.

I also worked at a residential detention center which was a large campus. I had to restrain dozens of inmates. Some were a head taller than me and ones had arms as round as my head. I had to do this without swinging at them while they were trying to beat the hell out of me. Still, I would have swung if I had to but I didn't because I am good. I had to do this by myself with no weapon.

I have succesful records in wrestling, kickboxing, boxing and sparring (if you count that) and I have been sparring in my training for over 20 years.

I am currently writing a book. It will be a comprehensive book on my personal knowledge. The entirety of my system will be contained in it for examination. It won't cost very much since I am not famous.

It will stand on its own. No plans for a video or a dojo really. Why? Because I just want kids who only have McDojos in their town to have something that they can suppliment their training with that doesn't cost them $800. Because I wished I had that when I was a kid. I had to do my early training myself. I had to work hard, research things and create. Later on I got formal training and mixed with some great instructors in TMA. I was doing mixed sparring long before there was a UFC too.

The UFC made NHB fighting popular when I had already started my adult life. I really don't feel the need to prove myself. I might try it once someday just to say I did it. But I am 31 years old now so its a maybe.

Emin though - his career is martial arts. He is the one out there saying he can defeat any man alive including the Gracies. I don't have a reason to go to Pride or the UFC. I am just some guy. He is super Bruce Lee man of steel Emin. If he is going to talk big - he should back it up. He should compete. If he does (even if he loses) I will have much more respect for his claims.

Videos may not be a good representation of Emin, I agree. Heck, in some of his parry defense demos the guy actually gets the punch in before Emin blocks it .. if the guy didn't aim to the side he would have hit Emin. You have to slow the video down to see it. Maybe video is a better representation than real life sometimes. They use it in football to make calls. A guy's attitude and charisma can dazzle you in person but the tale of the tape doesn't lie.

>In self defence as you probably know it's idiotic >to "go" on the ground,

Not everyone "goes" to the ground. Most people get taken there. In BJJ they are smart enough to realize that going to the ground on your own terms is better than getting put there. Not every guy walks up and says, "Hey you, we are going to fight now." Once a guy just ran at me when I wasn't looking and tackled me into a bunch of chairs and started swinging. That one went to the ground before i even knew it was a fight. Was I supposed to ask him to stand back up so we could fight like men or wrestle?

>you are 200% more vulnerable to your opponents
>friends,

Yea, when you are standing up they can come up behind you. You are always vulnerable to his friends. You have to try to use the terrain and indirect attacks to different guys to get some sort of advantage. Run to a safe bottleneck like a doorway or a hallway. Get help. Find high ground where they have to climb to get to you. Use your brain. Take the battle to them if you are surrounded. (Sun Tzu) .. But when there are more of them they are more likely to grab you. They can't all punch you at the exact same time. Grappling is going to be something you have to deal with - when there is a group it happens more often. Know the ground. Stand up and run if you can .. if the guy behind you doesn't get you in a headlock. But you better be ready no to get buried if they take you down.

>Yet most fights in NHB fights go to the ground,
>Why you ask? because in a 1 on 1 in a ring it's
>best to go to the ground and 90% of the
>competitors they train for specifically that

Strikers go to the ground too. When you hit the guy and he falls down you follow him down there and finish him. Its going to go to the ground eventually if its one on one. You just have to decide how it happens. I guess you could knock him down and run away but .. there's a fence.

>and that is why WC/WT/VT is not suited for a ring >match.

Yet boxing and Muay Thai are .. why not compete in those then?

>Yet you said you think you could beat him but have >no intention of ever trying to do so,

There are a lot of guys who are better than Emin who I don't intend to fight too. So what?

>i guess it's your loss keep on with your ignorance >of bashing people you have no intention of ever
>trying to even spar with.

I am not bashing him. I am saying he is just like a hundred other self-defense instructors I have met. I didn't mean that he is average as in .. an average guy on the street. I meant average as in an average martial arts teacher. Maybe we were confused on that issue. I don't mean to seem like I don't respect him or the millions of martial arts instructors as good and better than him. I am just saying that he doesn't stand out from them in my opinion. He has no reason to be arrogant. He is no better than the rest of us.

>This turned into a flame fest,

You were the reason it did - not me.

>if you were secure enough in yourself you
>wouldnt even have said you could beat him in the
>first place, you would be content that you knew
>it yourself.

Hey, you asked. I never said it until you called me a mouse-jockey.

>go check him out yourself and then form your oppinion,

If he ever comes to town I will. Happy?

Like I said a dozen times. I am not trying to call him a wimp. I am just saying he is your typical self-defense instructor. Maybe I just haven't met as many really really bad ones as you have.

*Little Idea,

Emin is a about 6'1" 200 lbs.

>Emin Boztepe may be a lot of things, some good,
>some maybe not so good, but average isn't one of
>them.

His arrogance is what offends me .. that's the only thing really. I don't mean he is the average guy on the street. I just mean that he is an average self-defense instructor. Get exposed to more of them and you will see what I mean.

Maybe also the Turkish thing has something to do with it. My family is Greek. My Mom's Dad was in a Turkish POW camp for 2 years during the wars over Greek provinces after Greece won her independence. My family over there has faught the Turks for centuries. They also faught the Nazis. I don't have a lot of love for either one.

>Emin is a about 6'1" 200 lbs.

The last guy that attacked me (3 seperate times during the same hour) was 6 foot 4 and 250# and even though he wasn't a WT master he was athletic and a punk. It wasn't his first fight. He had a lot of reach on me and a big weight advantage. (I am 5 foot 11 and 185#) This guy wasn't as skilled as Emin but I handled him and controlled the fight very easily. 6 foot 1 and 200# doesn't even sound scary after that.


.. Okay, I feel like a choad for talking myself up even though it was in defense so I am going to lay low for a little while. *sigh*


>> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643

[Little Idea]

9Chambers,

You can think whatever you like. You are just plain wrong about a lot of things but hey, what can you do, eh?

It is 2002. You can't like Turkish people? I mean come on. I have Jewish, German and Native American blood, my wife has African and Arabic blood, what the **** are our kids going to do?

I'm about the same size as you. I know guys who weigh 250 lbs that I can wipe the floor with and I also know guys who weigh 140 lbs that I'd hate to have to fight.

Emin may be brash, but he's not terribly arrogant, not compared to your average 'self defense' instructor from Indiana.

Find me where he claimed he could beat anyone?

[nos108]

lol little idea

i'm not gonna give a side cause i don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to knowledge emin,

but i have heard both sides of these arguments but just wondering whats your take on his fight with william cheung and challenge with gracies that never came to fruition and what's your opinions on william cheung?

[Little Idea]

Willian Cheung said he could beat anyone elses Wing Chun. Emin went to see.

I'm sure William Cheung is a nice man.

The Gracies were bad mouthing every martial artist at the time. Emin challenged them to fight with 'no rules'. The original challenge was to put 5 WT trained fighters against 5 of whoever the Gracies wanted to bring. Collectively they couldn't seem to figure out what rules they should have for 'no rules' fighting or agree on a time and place to actually do it. A lot was made about the 'bad blood' in the media, but if you talk to Emin, he really only had a problem with Rorian. (half the Gracies can't stand Rorian either so go figure)

This is from an interview on Sifu Emin's website:

We are sure that you've heard this question a lot of times, but this one of the most famous event about you: your fight with William
Cheung. Even now, twenty years after that fight, it is rumored that you attacked him by treachery and even that he won the fight. Can
you tell us something more about this neverending story?

Emin Boztepe : Sadly rumors will never stop....but eighty people can witness what really happened. Some students of William Cheung eventually
come with me.
You see how I move, I don't need to attack someone from behind or using any trick. The funny thing is that during this years I always told the same
version of the story, while William Cheung and his students always change the story (I attacked him from behind, using a photo as a trick, with a knife,
with fifteen people, with a bazooka, with a tank....)!
I say this once for all: I definitely beat William Cheung up. But it's not my enemy! It was an enemy of Leung Ting and Kernspecht, and in that time they
used me. They didn't know how good William Cheung was and, not wanting to fight him in person, they sent me, knowing I was so loyal (I was only 22).
And even now, they don't care about students but only about money. I know what I say, because I stayed with them for over 20 years, even if I never
was one of the toady ones who are the closest to him. I have my dignity and I know I'm in right when I say that Kerspecht is a liar and a profiter. Even
his books are not al his idea, he simply took theories and ideas from otherones and published them with his name.

If you could turn back time, would you fight with William Cheung again?


Emin Boztepe : I have to say that sixteen years ago he deserved what he got, cause he was talking bullshit about my family at that time. But he's
not a personal enemy of mine: I wish him all the best and an happy and successful life.
Surely now I'd not fight anymore if one would offend Leung Ting and Kernspecht. But I'm ready to fight anyone who would attack me, my family or my
students.

[9chambers]

Litle Idea,

>You can think whatever you like. You are just
>plain wrong about a lot of things but hey, what
>can you do, eh?

>It is 2002. You can't like Turkish people?

Me personally, I like everyone of every race. I am just saying that deep in my mind that might be an influence. I could pretend it has nothing to do with it but the more I think about it .. maybe it is something that influences me .. so I threw that out there because honestly I have no real reason to care about Emin or his work in any way .. but here I am talking about him .. so I thought I would consider the Turkish thing.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought it up in here but readers who might be supporting my opinion should have a right to know that my perspective on him might be biased a little. That's why I mentioned it. Its only fair. Maybe part of me doesn't want to like him. Its something for me to think about.

>Emin may be brash, but he's not terribly arrogant,
>not compared to your average 'self defense'
>instructor from Indiana.

Maybe I am wrong about that .. I will do some research. Maybe he is a nice guy with a great attitude. If he is then I am sorry for making fun of his videos. If he isn't then screw him. I'll read more about him and try to go to a seminar. Happy? (Is he going to be in Chicago, St. Louis or Indianapolis any time soon?)

I am not brash .. I just get carried away defending my opinions sometimes. I don't mean to seem arrogant. Maybe I did go a little overboard this time. Sorry.

>Find me where he claimed he could beat anyone?

I may have just gotten that impression from the way people talk about him on here. Maybe its his SUPPORTERS who are annoying and not Emin himself.

Who knows, maybe after a while I will be an Emin fan too. I'll try my best. Happy?

>You are just plain wrong about a lot of things but hey, what can you do, eh?

We can talk about those things instead of about Emin. What are they?

This post was supposed to be about WC anyway. What was I wrong about .. okay, going to the high ground where they have to climb to you may hinder your escape, you have to use good judgement.

Okay guys, lets quit the flaming and get back to real issues. I am sorry for my part in it. I surrender. Emin is super fabulous and could kick the whole worlds ass with one hand. I see that now.

What REAL problems did you have with the things I suggested or anyone else suggested on this thread?


>> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643

[Little Idea]

9,

We're cool, I didn't mean you didn't know anything. If I ever meet you, we can talk about it over dinner, I'll buy.

Emin is scheduled to be in Chicago on November 1st.

He's just a man, but he is very good at what he does. Go and see. . .

[guest]

First of all 9chambers - very good post.

I gained alot more respect for just reading that

"Yet boxing and Muay Thai are .. why not compete in those then?"

These fighting styles are both made for the ring, Boxing more so than Muay Thai, I got tons of respect for Muay Thai people they can take a hell of a beating but that is the exact opposite than what WT is about if you get the chance you should try and get the book On Single Combat it explains alot of the ideas about WT (some are quite differnt than "regular" WC some are alike) but the key thing is there are no blocks, you have to be well trained to be able to resist direct blocs and even then go look in the mcdojo archive and see what can happen with the low kick OUCH.

I'm not saying WT is the end all be all, but in my humble? oppinion it is one of the best answers to self defence, it's built after principles that you the victim avoid being hit but still the second the hostile opponent enters and agreesive assaulting manner you strike out borrowing his strength and adding your own. Grappeling is becomming more and more widespread and atleast good WT clubs are training accordingly. However I feel that in a hostile attack when you are being attacked you are likely to be over powered simply by the fact that no "thug" will attack you if you look stronger than him (unless he has a weapon or friends) and therefore WT is imho more suited to get you out of that safely.

">go check him out yourself and then form your oppinion,

If he ever comes to town I will. Happy?"

Extremely. And im not saying you should go up and challenge him or anything, just go check him out who knows maybe everyone will learn something or a new door will open to our learning :)

Ok ill end it here, If you can either borrow On Single Combat from a friend or maybe consider buying it - I atleast found that it clarifies alot of how WT is built up and why other traditional MA won't work in a real life encounter (I'm not saying they won't help but some of them are flawed just by relying on visual reactions).

I'll like to add too that you seem that you are very intelligent and have a mind of your own and are willing to atleast see if you are wrong. I have alot of respect for that - not that you can use that for anything :p

Anyway good luck and if he ever does come to your town let us know how it went, even if it's saying he sucks :p

[guest]

Small thing I would like to add from reading the last paragraph in your post -

There is a big differnce in being a Nazi and a Turk, if you are a Nazi you share the same views as the ones who commited all the horible crimes they did. If you are a Turk you were merely born in the same country as those who were at war with Greece, I'm sure he was not part of it and you can't judge people just by where they come from.

Good luck

[guest]

Gah I gotta start reading the whole thread before I aplly.

Just forget about the above as you obvoisuly agree with it, my bad not reading the whole thread.

Looking forward to reading your book btw!

[SGTStG]

Wow, what an interesting little argument. We all know how everyone feels about WT now, but I believe the quesion was for WC. If they are two completely different forms, and WT is not just a modified version of WC then why can't anyone ever bring up one without talking about the other, and then getting in a contest over which one is real and which one sucks? I am surprised you all don't start bashing JKD just because Bruce learned WC before he started JKD, so obviously JKD is just a modified version of WC right? If Bruce Lee wasn't dead we would all be bashng him for having ripped off his style from Yip Man, and maybe somewhere along the line he would have had to try to kick the crap out of William Chueng to try and prove himself. IMHO Bruce had to much self confidence to have to prove himself by jumping an old man. Bruce also knew the importance of challenging someone properly, and not trying to start crap in a basketball gym. I would think that Emin would have at least had the courage to say, "Hey, I was young, and I made a mistake. It doesn't matter what the outcome of the fight was, I am sorry." Instead he goes on, twenty years later, about how he kicked Master Chueng's ass. I don't have any respect for him just because of that.



Edited by - sgtstg on October 07 2002 02:13:13