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  1. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 11:27am

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Would you give a 16 year old a Corvette in order to reduce acceleration anxiety? Or do you want them to learn in to drive in your grandmas old Caprice?

    What I am saying is...build up to the big boys. Don't throw someone in the deep end without instruction. If you are going to try to teach someone 'the hard way' ie - on thier own, give them something a little bit less like a damn race car. If you are going to have them being TAUGHT by an experienced teacher then you might want to give them a little more of a performance vehicle.
  2. vigilus is offline
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    Infidel

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 11:32am


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I see where SFGOON is going.

    If you hand someone a decked out SKS with all the bells and whistles theres a good chance their going to **** around. They won't care about the principals of leadership, just squeeze the trigger and have fun. Instant gratification.

    If you hand someone a bolt action rifle their going to slow down and be in a better position to work on their skills.

    When I teach and coach shooting (time permititng) I like to make new shooters load, ready, fire a round then unload. Then repeat. I find it helps them consintrate on their shot more and avoids the 'well if i miss this shot i have another one' mentality.

    I think you also think you need the right tools. You shouldn't build anything with a hammer which heads held on by tape or wire.
    Like wise you need a rifle in decent condition and not something where the barrel is blown out. Students need to see their princapals work.
  3. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 12:06pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Would you give a 16 year old a Corvette in order to reduce acceleration anxiety? Or do you want them to learn in to drive in your grandmas old Caprice?

    What I am saying is...build up to the big boys. Don't throw someone in the deep end without instruction. If you are going to try to teach someone 'the hard way' ie - on thier own, give them something a little bit less like a damn race car. If you are going to have them being TAUGHT by an experienced teacher then you might want to give them a little more of a performance vehicle.
    You and I have essentially the same premises yet we're arriving at different conclusions. Somebody's logic is convoluted here. I rather suspect it's yours.

    Kidding, and I do very much see your point. My assumption is that someone will be there to watch them shoot, but in the absence of that, yes a .22 might be better. However, "aliveness" also applies to firearms training, and nothing's more alive than a .308 or a .44 magnum revolver on double action. To me, it would be like practicing BJJ with a compliant partner, which would be blasphemy. And I say that as a systema practitioner.

    Guiltyspark is feelin' my vibe. I dig that. Groovy.
    Last edited by SFGOON; 6/17/2007 12:09pm at .
  4. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 12:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm still not over SFGoon's malignment of shooting one handed. Apparently that's for fat LARPERS too. Not someone with, ****...I don't know...a flashlight?

    Now learning the fundamentals of shooting on a .308? As if the cost itself weren't reason enough not to...

    Whatever...

    :5wow:
    Last edited by Nid; 6/17/2007 12:13pm at .
  5. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 12:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hadn't really thought about the cost of ammunition. Bad on me.

    Last weekend my dad and I went out shooting. For the first time in like...15 years. He was the guy who taught me firearm awareness/safety when I was a kid.

    He brought out his .22 winchester from when he was 13 years old. A 50 year old gun. I had my AR15, and we grabbed my granddads 30-30. We also had his .357 S&W.

    I dunno why I am saying all this. Mainly for nostalgia I guess. Having the 'old man' out there shooting alongside me again. Pretty cool. But to bring this back to Kein's point. A box of 30-30 ammo was about $12 for 20 rounds. A box of .223 for my AR15 is about $7 for 20 rounds. A box of .22LR was about $15 for 400 rounds.

    In conclusion to my long ass essay I propose this: A cheaper 22lr, with $20 in ammunition is probably going to teach you more about the fundamentals of shooting than an expensive higher caliber with ammution that costs an arm and a leg. Simply put - you are going to get more shooting time in with that .22 because you are going to have a truckload of ammo.
  6. ysc87 is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 1:12pm


     Style: crapp-lawl-ing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wetware
    Try a .30-06. You will feel recoil anxiety. In fact, it may teach you recoil anxiety.
    nah, i don't... got over it a few years ago after i learned skeet shooting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    In conclusion to my long ass essay I propose this: A cheaper 22lr, with $20 in ammunition is probably going to teach you more about the fundamentals of shooting than an expensive higher caliber with ammution that costs an arm and a leg. Simply put - you are going to get more shooting time in with that .22 because you are going to have a truckload of ammo.
    nicely said.
  7. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 5:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    forget the big-price items, expecially when it comes to firearms.

    I agree with Kurt Saxon in this respect:
    A pistol for the bedroom,
    A shotgun over the door,
    A 30-06 for reaching out;
    You don't need any more.

    If an intruder makes it to your bedroom, shoot him with the pistol. If he's trying to break in, use the shotgun. If he is fifty yards or more away and shooting at you, pick him off with the 30-06.
    You can get a Mossberg 12gauge at Big 5 for around $300.

    For the pistol, I recommend a Ruger revolver, .357 if you can afford it, since you can always practice with .38, saves alot of money when you're at the range. That's the big plus on the .357. I recommend Ruger's SP101 or GP100, or look at Taurus' .357s.
  8. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2007 6:16pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I must say that I agree on learning rifle marksmanship with a .22 rifle. I did. & if it's just a passing fancy, then you won't be out alot of money.
  9. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2007 12:44am


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, the .22 is cheaper, however...

    When it comes to learning to shoot, quality does not improve with volume. Perhaps when learning fundamentals (BRAS, which should take about ten minutes.) After that, you will find that your first few shots are brilliant, and the ones after that get lamer and lamer...

    So why not get in that extra practice? Because the brain remembers the LAST thing it did the best. If you wear your concentration down shooting 100 rounds, those shitty final five shots will be what your brain attunes itself to during your down time. Not good at all. Five decent shots will cause you to progress faster in your skill than 100 mediocre ones. It works even better if you take a five minute break between shots to cool off both your barrel and your concentration.

    Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

    So expense is only a concern if you want to sling lead down range. I wonder why people who do that even bother putting up a target. Choose a rock and save yourself $5.

    And before the hissy fits begin, none of the above applies to pistolcraft or CQB. Training for that is simpler - just give it loads.


    Oh, and Kurt Saxon? Are you fucking kidding? You and Elmore have the same sources it would seem.
  10. Bladesinger is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2007 1:33am


     Style: MMA, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Try a Mosin-Nagant(any version). Solid, reliable, takes a beating, and very affordable. You can usually pick them up for around $70, give or take.



    The ammo is also affordable as well, though not as easily found as some. You can find it online, at gun shows, and sometimes at gun stores when they have it in. Ask around locally.
    Round these parts and online, you can order a tin of surplus ammo, 440 rounds, for about $60. If you require lead nose ammo, Bear makes decent stuff at about $8 for a box of 20.
    Cheaperthandirt.com is a good source for ammo.
    I like this round for practice/learning. You get the noise and recoil, without the high cost, and you'll be shooting out of a solid , no frills platform.


    I am biased though, I love these guns. :icon_bigg
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