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  1. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 8:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    BJJ does not claim to have existed before Maeda taught the Gracies; kendo's perfectly happy to acknowledge its mid-Edo period origins and aikido's way too hung up on Ueshiba's genius to claim an earlier origin. The Bujinkan has repeatedly claimed a historical lineage it can not or will not prove. Can you see why it might be tasked with dishonesty where the others are not?
    Unfortunately I have to agree that there is almost certainly no evidence of its lineage. If it is true ninjutsu then the last thing to find would be a document pointing to someone as a ninja grandmaster. Japanese history is littered with examples of "the winner rewriting history". The best that Hatsumi could say is that it is based on a book used by ninjas. From what I have seen most of the historical texts about ninjas contain language that is deliberately designed to obscure its purpose. I can't understand Hatsumi's motivations to withhold documents - if he indeed did have possession of such - though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Now, if we decide to pass over the question of historicity and move onto evidence that the art is effective, we can look at each art's claims again. Kendo makes no claim to be more than a sport. BJJ has decades of success in Vale Tudo, no holds barred one on one fights, which tends to show that within certain parameters it is almost obscenely effective. I'll skim over aikido for the moment as not many here champion aikido as an effective martial art, but I will mention that many of their claims of value rest on Ueshiba being purportedly a tough son-of-a-bitch.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    The Bujinkan's claim to effectiveness however doesn't rest on its members having thrown down with and beaten other arts, nor on some other carefully documented body of evidence showing the advantages it lends its practitioners. Instead, it has to rely on either a) Hatsumi is or was a badass or b) these techniques are descended from real ninja techniques, and if they worked in feudal Japan, they'll work just as well now! For many of us, there just isn't enough evidence to thoroughly convince us of a), and well, b) takes us back to that question of historicity we thought we'd got away from...
    Effectiveness is such a.... difficult word. The punches in Karate are extremely effective at breaking bamboo chestplate armour but require vast amounts of energy and strength. Bujinkan has elements that I would consider to be effective and others that are so awkward that I wonder what their purpose is. This would be true for all martial arts I would think. This also harks back to the deliberately obscure documentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Pardon? You are aware that BJJ makes up a significant part of the modern US Military Combatives curriculum, right?

    And while I'd be here perfectly within my rights to brag about BJJ's adoption by the U.S. Military and suggest that shows its superiority... it really doesn't. Soldiers are taught to fight with weapons from start to finish, and any unarmed component of their education is given relatively cursory attention at best. This should be readily apparent given some of the more ludicrous combative systems of the past - e.g. Fairbairn's heavy use of judo striking. (I love judo, but not one judoka in a thousand would argue that judo striking is worth anything these days.)
    Sure and Kendo makes up the school curriculum in Japan. Just because it won the contract doesn't mean it is effective. As you have pointed out BJJ is very effective against 1 on 1.

    Lets assume that Hatsumi's claims actually have some thread of merit. Then it is a combat proven martial art for that time.

    Abstracting that away and assuming that Hatsumi is full of it, I believe that there is merit in some of the techniques. In particular, the use of movement and body weight to give the martial artist as sense of their own balance and their opponent's balance; the use of all weapons without focusing on whether the weapon is there or not; and having a sense of what some would refer to as "the mystic superability known as no mind". Which I was taught as "Stop thinking about it.". There are others but you get the idea of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    This is all very well, but you know, round these parts we've this odd notion that a martial art should teach you how to fight, or it may stand accused of misrepresenting itself. If the Bujinkan advertised itself as a novel alternative way of getting fit and recuperating from life-changing injuries, few of us would more than glance at it.
    I stated my medical condition because it is relevant to my selection criteria. I honestly don't know how Bujinkan is advertised I have actually never seen an ad. I suppose if it was advertised as the Ultimate Fighting Art I wouldn't go. The dojo I went to had a tiny sign that said Bujinkan - in fact it is almost impossible to find a bujinkan dojo without deliberately looking for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    You realise that the modus operandi of bouncers and police officers is generally to swarm a single offender with a mob of people, hold said offender down and subdue him? Policemen also generally may have batons, CS gas, tasers, guns, and any other armament that the state sees fit to provide. You will please note that a great many policemen and bouncers with no martial arts training whatsoever have long and successful careers.
    I'm not sure that 1 or 2 police constitutes a mob. Sure, in a riot with 700 police but not in everyday activities. I'm not really sure where you are going with this this is like saying that a lot of people live in New York without Martial Arts training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    I'd pretty much agree with your "jerk" assessment. What art was that instructor from, by the way? I'd almost be prepared to lay money that it was not boxing, judo or BJJ. People rarely get that size of stick up their ass in the sparring arts.
    No it was Iaijutsu. I was interested in it before I attended his classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    You're missing the point. We're trying to employ logic and the scientific method as best we can to sift through the mountains of wild claims thrown from every corner of martial arts to discern the genuine from the fraudulent. And make no mistake, fraud is endemic in this field. It's as though we had an army of swimming coaches out there who taught their students on dry land, cautioned them that swimming pools developed bad habits, and reassured them that if they needed to swim for their life, their training would give them the ability. Their students would not be able to swim, but people drown infrequently enough that their deception would not be readily uncovered.
    But to tar all practitioners with the same brush is not logical or scientific. Just because Stephen Hayes or Wayne L Roy make wild claims doesn't make the rest of Bujinkan frauds. I'm not sure about Hatsumi's claims - I haven't seen any documents about them - and they must be taken in the context of a Japanese person talkng to other Japanese.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    This should not be and should never have been religious. This should not be and should never have been a matter of opinion. This should have been from the beginning a question of science. We have a testing protocol: take two men, stick them in a cage and tell them to fight until one submits or is unable to continue, and document whose training served him best. If you don't like it, construct a better one and say why you believe it's better. When you start shying away from testable data and reproducible results, you make space for charlatans.
    Is that really a scientific test? Can a woman beat a man twice her size of absolutely equal ability? Can the winner of that contest defeat 3, 4, 5, 10 opponents?

    The reality is that there is no test. If an individual wants to do a martial art for physical fitness then all martial arts are appropriate.

    If they want a combative martial art then the reality is that no martial art can truly prepare you fully.

    If you are in a life-threatening situation then you should talk to the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Which arts? And the black belt was introduced by Jigoro Kano over a century ago, and has featured from the inception of a great many arts which like to suggest they're older than they are.
    An advertisement on T.V. a few years ago said "Have you ever dreamed of owning Black Belt?". I have found that in todays society people focus more on getting a blackbelt than learning.

    TC
  2. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 8:49pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    To answer the OP

    A martial art based around Ninja's is only slightly less silly than an martial art based around pirates.
    HUH? Are you saying that the ninja couldnt fight? That pirates couldn't fight or swashbuckle?
  3. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 8:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    It might look like that the bujinkan is singled out but in reality, yes it is singled out.

    In my opinion it doesn't matter which dead art you do. Bujinkan, taichi, hapkido, karate, kempo they all suffer from the same thing. It doesn't matter if you do big circular blocks against a lunge punch or you do bong sau against a _un punch, neither of them really work. You can practice clapping the punch between your hands if you want, it doesn't matter.
    Technically all martial arts are dead arts. Go and buy a glock. No training involved.
  4. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 8:55pm

    Join us... or die
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    I'll let you know as soon as I finish reading this newly discovered sacred scroll

    Spoiler:
  5. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 9:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    I don't have anything to say about your comments but this one is wrong.

    I understand what you're saying, martial arts is a set of techniques and skill set and that physical strenght and endurance are the "fuel" so to speak to drive the engine.

    But

    You can't separate them completely like that.

    Conditioning and stamina are just as important to a martial artist.

    The arguement that it's not important enough to train in martial arts is often used by people in bad physical shape.
    I agree in part. In 1500 when your only profession was a gun for hire/ronin/ninja/kensai training 7 days a week for 10 hours a day, pushups are very relevant.

    At $20-$300 a month for one or 2 hours a day, twice or 3 times a week. The teacher could have the decency ask you to do 1000 pushups at home and get on with the techniques. If you don't do them then you will not succeed. If you do you are dedicated.

    The arguement that it is important to do pushups in class is a financial one.

    (Note: warmups are different.)

    TC
  6. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 9:02pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Munacra
    Please link the offending posts. That claim needs some hard evidence. I think it will be harder to prove than you think.

    Well, the hatred part yeah, I'm pretty sure it's everywhere, but that's the best part!
    Soju - Joe " That thar still not be yarrr as gay as a grown man pretending to be a Ninja arrr arrr"

    = Homophobia.

    Edit: I didnt even need to bother looking.
  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 9:09pm

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    Sorry let me clarify

    I meant gay in the more generic term as it's childish and silly.

    I.E. A grown man pretending to be a pirate is chilidish and silly, like a grown man pretending to be a ninja is childish and silly

    Now cowboy.

    Cowboys are saaaaweeeeeeeeet

    Yeehah
  8. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 9:10pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    Effectiveness is such a.... difficult word. The punches in Karate are extremely effective at breaking bamboo chestplate armour but require vast amounts of energy and strength.
    Wow, so I'm actually practicing to break bamboo chestplate armour? I had no idea! All I knew about our punches, honestly, is that they're effective for punching bags and knocking the wind out of me. I thought their ultimate purpose might be something like breaking jaws or teeth not breastplates, but I suppose I could be mistaken.

    One is inclined to wonder, however, why on Earth someone would face an armed and armoured man empty-handed.

    Abstracting that away and assuming that Hatsumi is full of it, I believe that there is merit in some of the techniques. In particular, the use of movement and body weight to give the martial artist as sense of their own balance and their opponent's balance
    Show me a martial art that doesn't pay attention to balance. I'm still fairly new to the world of martial arts, so I'll be fascinated.

    ...the use of all weapons without focusing on whether the weapon is there or not
    What does this mean?

    I honestly don't know how Bujinkan is advertised I have actually never seen an ad. I suppose if it was advertised as the Ultimate Fighting Art I wouldn't go. The dojo I went to had a tiny sign that said Bujinkan - in fact it is almost impossible to find a bujinkan dojo without deliberately looking for it.
    I always figured that if you could find a ninja school, they must not be very good ninjas.

    :ninjafigh

    I'm not sure that 1 or 2 police constitutes a mob. Sure, in a riot with 700 police but not in everyday activities.
    All the same, police officers will generally have numerical superiority (two against one counts), and are presumably trained in some hand-to-hand altercation techniques. If some cops with Bujinkan training are effective cops, that proves nothing. If you can show that cops with Bujinkan training are more effective than other cops, I'm sure everyone will be delighted to see the evidence.

    But to tar all practitioners with the same brush is not logical or scientific. Just because Stephen Hayes or Wayne L Roy make wild claims doesn't make the rest of Bujinkan frauds. I'm not sure about Hatsumi's claims - I haven't seen any documents about them - and they must be taken in the context of a Japanese person talkng to other Japanese.
    The general feeling around here appears to be that no one has shown Bujinkan Ninjutsu to be effective, and many of its adherents make outrageous claims. I am not qualified to cite specifics, but this is the atmosphere you've chosen to go up against.

    Is that really a scientific test? Can a woman beat a man twice her size of absolutely equal ability? Can the winner of that contest defeat 3, 4, 5, 10 opponents?
    Obviously the test must be regarded in an "all other things being equal" context. Can a person with roughly X hours of Bujinkan training beat a person with roughly X hours of BJJ training, or MT training, or Classical Ballet training? Pair up contestants of roughly equivalent weight, record the results, and repeat over and over again. With equal ability, the woman facing a male adversary twice her size will lose ninety-nine times out of a hundred.

    As for multiple-opponent scenarios -- much as I enjoy multiple-opponent drills when we do them because they are fun and physically intense, my conclusion so far is that what you need to tackle multiple opponents is one part awareness and a hundred parts ability to take out the nearest one really goddamn fast because you can't fight several people at the same time. This leads me to conclude that a good art for multiple opponents is one that works well against a single opponent, without compromising one's position (id est, that doesn't end up with me on the ground at the end of it).

    Keep in mind, though, that the most common answer to "How do I fight two opponents at once?" will in the real world likely be "Badly and painfully", and the most effective Dim Mak technique may be to cause them to pass away years later from the infected blood you splash on them as you go down.

    If an individual wants to do a martial art for physical fitness then all martial arts are appropriate.

    If they want a combative martial art then the reality is that no martial art can truly prepare you fully.
    There's a world of difference between "no art can prepare you fully" and "no art can possibly be better than any other art".

    If you are in a life-threatening situation then you should talk to the police.
    What does this have to do with comparing the effectiveness of different arts? "It's better to call the police anyway" -- agreed -- "so my art doesn't need to be effective"?
  9. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 9:10pm

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    PS you should click the poiler tag.

    You know you want to

    and you know you will

    Mwhahhahhaha
  10. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2007 9:20pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    I agree in part. In 1500 when your only profession was a gun for hire/ronin/ninja/kensai training 7 days a week for 10 hours a day, pushups are very relevant.

    At $20-$300 a month for one or 2 hours a day, twice or 3 times a week. The teacher could have the decency ask you to do 1000 pushups at home and get on with the techniques. If you don't do them then you will not succeed. If you do you are dedicated.

    The arguement that it is important to do pushups in class is a financial one.

    (Note: warmups are different.)

    TC

    Warm ups are different.

    But you didn't initially say that and there's a big difference between doing 1000 push ups, which yes is a waste of time.

    And a good 20 minute high intensity, high impact conditioning includes push ups is far different.

    I also disagree that in 1500 it was more relevant, a society with no cars, no elevators, no power tools etc etc, doing 1000 push ups is irrelevant where as in today's society conditioning is more important than ever in martial arts (and in general)

    Your talking about simple exercises I am talking about hard conditioning.
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