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  1. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 2:35am

    Bullshido Newbie
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is no difference between
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    an art designed for those brief and unfortunate moments warriors were unarmed in battle would focus on defence against weapons
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    armed attackers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    My point is, I have never heard anyone but you seriously imply that karate was for use in battle. My assertion is that karate is a civilian defence system and "designed" for use against unarmoured opponents, unarmed or armed simply or crudely -- with at most knives, sticks, or clubs.
    Why are the punches and kicks so powerful. Why do they require so much strength and energy? Surely these are not designed as "one hit one kill" punches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    How is this? Not from personal experience, I presume, since you indicate that fighting isn't real fighting unless people die:
    nope I never said that it isnt real fighting. I said that the way to scientifically compare one martial art to another is a no holds barred match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    Have you seen a lot of people killed? Killed a lot of people? Been killed a lot?
    I have seen an enormous number of people die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    of course you will criticise other people's choices if you have a beef with them!
    it is not very scientific is it. "I don't like it so it is bad."

    [quote=Petter]
    This is a serious case of comparing apples and orange-coloured hand-grenades. The valid question is "Do you think that on average, martial artists who fight in full-contact tourmanents will beat people who do not practice full-contact sparring", to which the answer is "Hell yes" -- to my own detriment, actually, as I am not a sport fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    Interesting, as
    sort of suggests that Hatsumi deliberately misrepresented himself and refused to retract his claims even when called on it -- or are you saying, then, that he's not t3h r34l |\|inJ4?
    I'm open minded enough to say that he might be the real deal and he might be lying. Until there is unequivocal proof, my personal belief is that it is really really unlikely for a document to exist that clearly links Takamatsu to a ninja clan line. If Hatsumi pulls one out then I will be pleasantly surprised and will feel free to call you rude names. 8^P

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    (2) heroes in a half-shell.
    now that is my favourite kind of ninja. But the Eastman and Laird comic was better than the movies.
  2. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 2:54am


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    There is no difference between [partial quote of what I wrote] and [two words extracted from something else I wrote
    My quoting style here probably tells you what I think of your argument -- you quote me so narrowly that it's deceptive. There's a huge difference between a trained warrior wearing armour, possibly mounted, wielding a sword or a long spear, and a backalley thug, possibly drunk, unarmed or armed with a knife, and wearing no protective gear.

    Why are the punches and kicks so powerful. Why do they require so much strength and energy? Surely these are not designed as "one hit one kill" punches.
    Why so powerful? Why not? All other things being equal, it's better to hit someone hard than to tap them, is it not?

    Why do they require so much strength and energy? ...I don't know; I never felt that they do require a lot of strength and energy. I cannot tell you how often I get told I need to relax more.

    One hit one kill -- I don't even want to get into that in-depth because it's a ripe area of karate delusion. Suffice to say this: It's been mentioned to us in terms of committing to an attack and not just tapping the opponent, but I've also been told that "there's no last attack in karate"; never leave yourself in a position where you can't follow up your first attack.

    nope I never said that it isnt real fighting. I said that the way to scientifically compare one martial art to another is a no holds barred match.
    Just as the only way to scientifically test drugs is to inject humans with them, and the only scientific way of exploring singularities is creating massive black holes in laboratories, because "models" and "approximations" have no place in science.

    Please note the sarcasm in the above paragraph. It's kind of important.

    I have seen an enormous number of people die.
    In hand-to-hand combat? Under what circumstances?

    it is not very scientific is it. "I don't like it so it is bad."
    Ideally, your "beef" would be backed up by (1) coherent arguments and (2) evidence. Science is big on this stuff, and so is Bullshido. It's why I like this site, even if I don't exactly live by their martial teachings.
  3. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 6:22am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    What year? Assuming that Karate was developed pre-Edo and given the almost exclusive use of Tamagahane at the time for the manufacture of swords. And the scarcity of good quality iron in Japan. What were those massive punches designed to break? Certainly neither the ribs nor the solar plexus
    Let's start with you finding evidence that bamboo breastplates were ever common in Okinawa.

    ... in fact, you know, this is bloody silly. We have our hypothetical guy tricked out in bamboo armour, packing some kind of sword or dagger. You're suggesting that Mr. ProtoKarate is standing there punching this armoured dude in the chest. In what world does this seem like a sensible tactic to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    In Martial arts tournaments all combatants must pull their punches to avoid killing the opponent - even in UFC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    This says you know approximately squat about anatomy. Most people can't even muster knock-out power, let alone a killing blow, and pretty much every instance I've read of where someone has died from a punch ... has been because they've fallen, hit their head on hard ground or the street curb and broken their skull.
    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    If you think combat consists entirely of punches you are sadly mistaken.
    Reread this little exchange. You don't get to claim that people are pulling punches to avoid killing their opponents and, when called on it, hint that the super killing blow is not actually a punch. Also, you ducked the whole knock-outs argument, which would apply equally to tournaments that allow elbows, knees and kicks.

    Have you ever taken part in a full contact tournament?

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    Humans are rather more fragile than you think.
    How about you produce some evidence to support your crazy assertions here? A staggering number of full-contact kicks and punches are delivered in competition yearly. Deaths are rare, and usually brought on by taking a great number of strikes. It is possible to kill someone by knocking them down on a hard surface and repeatedly stamping on or kicking their head with boots. Makes the papers. All this is understood.

    However, you're claiming that unarmed strikes not just can, but are likely to, be deadly all by themselves. I want evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    There is adrenaline in a safe environment and adrenaline in a life or death situation. If you have ever experienced shock from a car accident then you will know what it is like. Adrenaline makes you lose focus and control, removes blood from the exterior of the body and boosts strength and reflexes.
    It's the same chemical; the difference we're talking of here is quantity.

    And things that fail to operate under the moderate adrenaline dump of a full contact fight are not likely to start working under a huge one.

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    Then you are wasting your time doing martial arts for self defence. Statistically you will have an attacker with a weapon.
    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf
    Page 14: "Latest data show that almost three-quarters of violent incidents did not involve the use of a weapon (72%)."

    Where are you getting your statistics from? I'm curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    There are just too many variables to predict the outcome. Are your chances of survival increased? Possibly, maybe, maybe it makes no difference.
    You are currently arguing the analogue of the case of swimming to shore after a shipwreck, and suggesting an Olympic swimmer's abilities may give them no advantage over someone who doesn't swim, since these were gained in a safe swimming pool instead of open water. Surely you can see the fallacies of this line of reasoning?

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    nope I never said that it isnt real fighting. I said that the way to scientifically compare one martial art to another is a no holds barred match.
    We've had a bunch of these. They're called "Vale Tudo". We know who wins.
  4. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 8:02am


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They also praticed pederastry, but I don't see many people jumping on that bandwagon.....
  5. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 8:51am


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is from memory rather than wiki so forgive the gaps......

    To be fair the Spartans practiced "non-physical" pederastry (which is "LOVE" for children - typically male - rather than a smple act of intercourse). This is why they looked at the Athenian form of physical love with boys with disdain.

    Pederastry was common in most warrior societies in ancient times. Even the samurai are reputed to have had a pederstric aspect to their personalities. At it's core it has something to do with being willing to die for someone that you love (the argument being that you would fight harder for them than for just a simple comrade). There is also a sense of "rite of pasage" in an older warrior pasing down his knowledge.

    Even in modern society it is still viewed as relatively acceptable - Batman and Robin and Captain America and Bucky being examples of a pederastic style relationship.

    Make you think doesn't it?
  6. BloodMagus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 11:01am


     Style: Battojutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
    Even the samurai are reputed to have had a pederstric aspect to their personalities.
    This is wakashudo or simply shudo. The Way of the Young (Men). It's not just an aspect, it was a well established part the samurai-caste culture and wasn't limited to just harmless 'love'. The relationship was said to last well after the young male had grown up.
    I can probably cite some specific references in books, just need to get the appropriate books.

    Wasn't til europeans converted them to the fear of God, that the practice faded out.


    So basically, if you're a samurai/kenshin wannabe its expected that you shack up with some older dude skilled in 'swordplay'. If it was prevalent amongst those secretive Iga & Koga clans, that means our fellow ninjers should be getting jiggy with Hatsumi and SJH. For the sake of tradition, of course.
  7. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 6:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    You don't get to claim that people are pulling punches to avoid killing their opponents
    OK I should have used "pull their punches" as an expression and not as a literal but then it would read "pull their punches, kicks, elbow strikes, biting, knee strikes, karate chops, etc etc" but it is a bit long to write and read. In the same way that if I say that something is a bit long in the tooth dont go arguing whether the arguement actually has teeth or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    How about you produce some evidence to support your crazy assertions here? A staggering number of full-contact kicks and punches are delivered in competition yearly. Deaths are rare, and usually brought on by taking a great number of strikes. It is possible to kill someone by knocking them down on a hard surface and repeatedly stamping on or kicking their head with boots. Makes the papers. All this is understood.
    ok so how can you actually compare martial arts when there are rules. For example a rule that says no kicks or a rule that says no grapples or no fingerlocks is unfair to some martial arts. Also rules that prohibit strikes to certain areas of the body cause the martial artist to think twice about doing something - surely a disadvantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf
    Page 14: "Latest data show that almost three-quarters of violent incidents did not involve the use of a weapon (72%)."

    Where are you getting your statistics from? I'm curious.
    My bad - I'll conceed that one. Although I would like to see the figures with domestic violence stripped out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    We've had a bunch of these. They're called "Vale Tudo". We know who wins.
    If you are going to claim that it is no holds barred then check the rules.

    These are not rules for No Holds Barred.
    from http://www.europeanvaletudo.com/rules.asp

    Fouls
    3. Butting with the head, eye gouging of any kind, biting, hair pulling, fish hooking, groin attacks of any kind, putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent, clawing/pinching/twisting the flesh, spitting at an opponent. Small joint manipulation (fingers and toes).
    4. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
    5. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
    6. Striking using the elbow.
    8. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
    22. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.

    I left these out because they are fair enough and they do not affect the outcome of the match.

    9. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
    10. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
    11. Stomping a grounded opponent.
    12. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
  8. GBLS is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 7:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BloodMagus

    So basically, if you're a samurai/kenshin wannabe its expected that you shack up with some older dude skilled in 'swordplay'. If it was prevalent amongst those secretive Iga & Koga clans, that means our fellow ninjers should be getting jiggy with Hatsumi and SJH. For the sake of tradition, of course.
    ew! I'm glad that tradition died.

    seriously there is a lot of documentation that says that the Master/Student relationship was less than platonic, however this really depended on the individual. Basically society then was, in some ways, much more reasonable and allowed people tp express their sexuality without the hysteria that we see in today's "civilised" society.

    Many documents from that time suggest that coersion into such relationships was not a norm, people just made a choice of whether they wanted to or not. Of course if you did want to study with a particular samurai you most likely had to abide by his whims. But still you made a choice. Since homosexuality wasn't viewed as either a good or bad thing I'd say that in today's terms it would be the equivalent of being asked to sweep the dojo each day.

    As for the ninja clans - since it was a community thing you could just learn off your dad or your mum.

    Suggesting that homosexuality was essential is like suggesting that every Martial Artist is gay. Some people are born plain straight.
  9. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 8:10pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    OK I should have used "pull their punches" as an expression and not as a literal but then it would read "pull their punches, kicks, elbow strikes, biting, knee strikes, karate chops, etc etc" but it is a bit long to write and read. In the same way that if I say that something is a bit long in the tooth dont go arguing whether the arguement actually has teeth or not.
    "Long in the tooth" is an idiomatic expression and, in context, a literal interpretation makes no sense. "Pull their punches" invited a literal interpretation. And it took you how many days to concede that it isn't literally true? It's rather inviting to believe that you meant exactly that and only turned around and conceded some ground when you were overwhelmingly outgunned in the argument.

    So, forbidden techniques aside (and deferred for below), what is your evidence that fighters in full-contact competitions pull either punches, kicks, elbow strikes, knee strikes, "karate chops", or any other techniques they use?

    ok so how can you actually compare martial arts when there are rules. For example a rule that says no kicks or a rule that says no grapples or no fingerlocks is unfair to some martial arts.
    Remember all I said about approximations and models? It's applicable, you know. The less restrictive the rules, the closer the model gets to the real thing. If you ban vast slews of techniques -- strikes in general, kicks, grabbing, or whatnot -- the approximation won't be very good. If you ban techniques that have shown themselves not to matter very much to the final outcome, it won't affect the accuracy of the model very much, either; examples would be finger locks. I would have to dig up a source, but an assertion was made that Vale Tudo originally did allow finger locks -- which didn't alter the outcomes, but resulted in more injuries that had to be tended after the match (i.e. competitors got their fingers broken but weren't deterred from finishing).

    Also rules that prohibit strikes to certain areas of the body cause the martial artist to think twice about doing something - surely a disadvantage.
    A disadvantage on both sides. But you have to think about targeting anyway, to some extent: If you want to be at all precise. How hard is it, really, to punch the chin instead of the throat? The body mechanics are exactly the same. And if you cannot punch someone on the chin properly, then why should we believe you can reliably deliver strikes to the throat? (Which is in a way a harder target to hit, because it can be covered up by simply tucking the chin.)

    If you are going to claim that it is no holds barred then check the rules.

    These are not rules for No Holds Barred.
    from http://www.europeanvaletudo.com/rules.asp

    [excerpts from the rules of one particular iteration of Vale Tudo]
    I am no UFC expert, but Wikipedia tells me that in the first UFC, the only illegal techniques were biting and eye gouging; in UFC 9, "disqualifications for illegal techniques [were] introduced for the first time", and gloves weren't required until UFC 14. In UFC 15, "Limits on permissible striking areas were introduced. Headbutts, groin strikes, strikes to the back of the neck and head, kicks to a downed opponent, small joint manipulation, pressure point strikes, and hair-pulling became illegal." In other words, the stuff you're concerned about wasn't banned until UFC 15.

    Now, your statement -- essentially, "UFC-style matches ban too many techniques to be fair models of real fights" -- infers that early UFC-style matches, which didn't ban all these techniques, presumably were fair matches. This means that in early UFC, real fighters would have done well. In later UFC iterations, fake fighters -- good at sports but not real fighting; you claimed earlier that there is no correlation between sport fighting skill and real fighting skill -- would do well.

    But looking at a list of past UFC champions, something very curious emerges. Several people actually placed quite well both before and after all those little techniques were banned: Vitor Belfort, Randy Couture, Mark Kerr, and others.

    But how can this be? You already told us, back in post #47, that
    in fact I couldn't think of anything that was further from reality than a tournament
    -- and when I said
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    but I am willing to posit that there is at the very least a strong correlation between the ability to defend yourself against real attackers and the ability to defend yourself against a sportfighter in the ring
    you "strongly disagreed".

    Can you please explain why these same fighters did well before and after banning those specific techniques that, you seem to suggest, are necessary for "real fighting"? --Given that you assert that there is no correlation between skill at sport fighting (with restrictions) and real fighting (without restrictions)?

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    I left these out because they are fair enough and they do not affect the outcome of the match.

    9. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
    10. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
    11. Stomping a grounded opponent.
    12. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
    Ironically, I will disagree with you here, too, in that I think that one of the things that does skew the outcome of UFC-style matches is rules prohibiting standing competitors from effectively kicking opponents on the ground; it may be rare, but there have been some matches where one fighter is on the floor, flailing his legs around, and the standing fighter is unable to do anything -- in spite of his obviously dominant position, standing versus lying on the ground! -- because he's not allowed anything better than to go to the ground.

    Happily, this doesn't seem to happen very often, so it shouldn't skew our results appreciably.
    Last edited by Petter; 6/05/2007 8:14pm at .
  10. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2007 10:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    agreed - although hitting a target without looking at it should be a skill that people in these arts practice. I suppose it is just very hard to pull off right in an emergency situation.
    A boxer can probably do it through hundreds if not thousands of hours sparring.


    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    I agree that some of the throws seem a little awkward (they certainly feel it) and most of that comes from the person being unable to properly balance and stand correctly. I'm not that good so I stuff up a lot, I don't shift my weight enough but when I do the throw right it is remarkably easy and a lot less clumsy. After a while the act of standing or leaning just right is as natural as throwing a punch.
    For throws that you can practice and pull of in resistant Randori - i.e Judo, wrestling throws. Yes practice helps. Other more esoteric throws that require a lot of cooperation on the Uke's part. Not so much


    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    I agree that you can condition your fight or flight reactions and you can limit the surge of adrenaline through regular practice, freesparring and training but that does not mean that it prepares you. You have no idea of the opponent's skill, number of opponents, weaponry or strategy.
    Ok but

    Quote Originally Posted by GBLS
    You don't know if you will freeze solid in fear, be sick, have a busted knee, have children, be on a flat or hill surface, be taller, shorter or stronger etc There are just too many variables to predict the outcome. Are your chances of survival increased? Possibly, maybe, maybe it makes no difference.
    Good sport training definitely helps in learning not to freeze, not just before but during a confrontation. I remember early in sparring, mashing my finger and stopping and telling the sensei I sprained my finger. He looked at me in disgust and told me to use my other hand, if you get in a real fight NEVER let the other guy know you are hurt. Flash forward in sparring again and someone hits me hard in the liver or something and I get a wave of pain and nausea rushing over me. At that moment I hear those words in my head and just keep going and fight my way through it.

    So yes there are many variables and nothing is perfect and you may not win, but being in better, physical, and mental condition with skills honed under pressure gives you a higher percentage of survival.
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