Defending the Bujinkan: Why is it singled out?

[Goju - Joe]

Apparently it is from what im told.

Tomoe Nage can be tough to pull off when someone knows it's coming.

Dude, it's definitely allowed, it's a major Judo throw.

And if I can pull it off anyone can.

Also people don't know it's coming when I do it, which really is the point of any throw.

I grab an inside grip on their forearm, fake for a leg with my other hand, when they shoot the leg back I reach inside and grab a collar with mu other hand, stick my foot in their hip ( I find I have better control in their hip) and woosh away we go.

In fact it's my highest percentage throw.

I also throw them back and to the side so I can keep going and get into mount right away.

Like I said if I can do it.

It doesn't sound like you went to a good Judo school.

[FickleFingerOfFate]

I haven't taken a judo class in 30 years and I can still pull that throw off.


It used to be my favorite.

[GBLS]

I already told you what I think karate is: An old system of civilian self defence: Defending yourself against thugs and similar assailants, unarmed or armed simply and unarmoured, not a battlefield art. Now will you please tell me whether you maintain that it's a battlefield art or not?

Whether it is a battlefield art or not would depend on the motivations of the creator.

So every time two people fight -- and it's not just for practice -- one of them dies?

that is just silly

Where on Earth did you come up with this belief that people can't get hit hard without dying? Human bodies just aren't that fragile.

Trust me - I know exactly how much punishment the human body can take.

So your assertion, then, is that all martial arts have exactly the same value for self defence? -- Since no martial artist has any right to criticise another. (Who decides on these "rights"?)

It is called "being polite". You don't criticise strangers for buying a Ford why would you criticise their martial art.

By the way, science -- the process of examining empirical evidence -- is not concerned with absolute proofs, which are the matter of mathematics and philosophy. Rather, scientists deal with approximations and models of problems all the time. Similarly, a sparring bout is a model of a real fight which, though not the real thing precisely, is still the best we can do without grievously injuring each other. (If you disagree, feel free to present your idea of a better model.)

But your assertion is that even if a martial art (such as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Muay Thai) shows itself to be effective in the ring, and other arts (like Tai Chi, Bujinkan, and Ballet) completely fail to show any effectiveness in the ring, this has no correlation at all to their effectiveness in a real fight?

Yep there is absolutely no relationship. You can hope and pray that if you ever get into a situation like that you will do something that is not stupid and that the opponent isn't more experienced than you. Are you saying that sparring in tournaments would give you an advantage against a seasoned SAS soldier with 5 years in combat experience?

No, but it shows that he's not trustworthy -- not dedicated to the truth. If we can't trust his word on where his teachings came from, then why on Earth should we take his word for their effectiveness?

Because Ninjas are known for their unwavering dedication to telling the truth. Because they never ever hid or obscured any information. Sure, he could be a shonk but looking very critically at the moves I can say that there has been careful consideration of the techniques and how they are to be used in combat - with a focus on energy conservation. I'd say that Hatsumi is a very good martial artist teaching a good martial art.

No apparent reason? Sweet mercy! Check out all the videos posted with ninjutsu practitioners around here (you have used the search function, right?) and tell me there's not even any apparent reason!

I watched some - some are truly awful. What does that mean? Some Karate, Jeet Kun Do, Kungfu and BJJ practitioners are awful. Do you mean that because of one bad person the entire martial art is rubbish?

Easily -- I've spent every day of my life so far not practicing with any of the above. I'm also not very concerned with arrows, because I don't feel the odds of my being ambushed by archers are high enough to be concerned with, or guns, because if someone points a gun at me I'm not dumb enough to try to attack him. Knife defence -- well, it'd be interesting to learn some, but I'm inclined to agree with my instructor who, when showing us a few basic knife defence moves, suggested that if someone comes at you with a knife you're already screwed.

Then you are wasting your time doing martial arts for self defence. Statistically you will have an attacker with a weapon.

Excellent! If you back this up with specifics -- what dojos you have practiced at, what kind of drills or types of sparring you did with resistance, and some form of evidence that this is indeed common

Why?

[Fitz]

Yep there is absolutely no relationship. You can hope and pray that if you ever get into a situation like that you will do something that is not stupid and that the opponent isn't more experienced than you. Are you saying that sparring in tournaments would give you an advantage against a seasoned SAS soldier with 5 years in combat experience?

Considering how little time military units spend on hand-to-hand combatives and how much of their training time is taken up by other more important activities towards their mission I'd say yes, if over five years you took someone who was training consistently for competative fighting and put them against someone in special forces, of whatever country of origin, in a hand-to-hand altercation I'd put my money on the competative fighter.

[GBLS]

Karate's origins are a bit murky.

Agreed.

And no, bamboo breastplates were not as far as I can tell ever a standard part of Japanese armour; they used metal, same as everyone else.

What year? Assuming that Karate was developed pre-Edo and given the almost exclusive use of Tamagahane at the time for the manufacture of swords. And the scarcity of good quality iron in Japan. What were those massive punches designed to break? Certainly neither the ribs nor the solar plexus.

This says you know approximately squat about anatomy. Most people can't even muster knock-out power, let alone a killing blow, and pretty much every instance I've read of where someone has died from a punch

If you think combat consists entirely of punches you are sadly mistaken.

Humans are rather less fragile than you'd think.

Humans are rather more fragile than you think.

Bollocks to this. This just says you've never been in a full-contact tournament. Believe me, if you're competing against someone who you know is skilled, and it's going to end in one of you possibly being slammed, knocked unconscious, choked unconscious or having a limb mangled... your adrenaline comes on pretty goddamn fast.

There is adrenaline in a safe environment and adrenaline in a life or death situation. If you have ever experienced shock from a car accident then you will know what it is like. Adrenaline makes you lose focus and control, removes blood from the exterior of the body and boosts strength and reflexes. The energy cost to the body is immense. And FWIW I have an excellent understanding of my anatomy and my pancreas thanks.

[Goju - Joe]

There is adrenaline in a safe environment and adrenaline in a life or death situation. If you have ever experienced shock from a car accident then you will know what it is like. Adrenaline makes you lose focus and control, removes blood from the exterior of the body and boosts strength and reflexes. The energy cost to the body is immense. And FWIW I have an excellent understanding of my anatomy and my pancreas thanks.

Exactly which is why martial arts that focus on fine motor skils - like Aikido, certain types of ju jitsu and various others fail in real life situations.

And therefore which is why MA, like boxing do so well in real life situations.

Most of the Buj stuff I have seen is over complex throws and such that won't work to well when the adrenaline is flowing.

Also you can condition your "fight or flight" response which is what good quality combat sport does.

It's pretty much the only training method that will do this with some safety that you can practice on a regular basis.

Yep there is absolutely no relationship. You can hope and pray that if you ever get into a situation like that you will do something that is not stupid and that the opponent isn't more experienced than you. Are you saying that sparring in tournaments would give you an advantage against a seasoned SAS soldier with 5 years in combat experience

There are many verifiable active and formerly active military types from different armed forces on this website. You should look around and read some threads on combatives before jumping to conclusions.

All armed forces (rightfully) focus way more on armed combat than un armed combat. Just because someone is in the SAS, marines or whatever doesn't mean they are a lethal killing machine with their bare hands able to destroy everyone.

They're just taught to believe that.

[Petter]

Whether it is a battlefield art or not would depend on the motivations of the creator.

Obviously, but it will also affect its design -- or should, anyway, lest it be totally useless. For instance, an art designed for those brief and unfortunate moments warriors were unarmed in battle would focus on defence against weapons, taking weapons from enemies, and getting the hell out of the way. A civilian defence art would reasonably be concerned more with unarmed or lightly and crudely armed attackers and deal more with grabs.

My point is, I have never heard anyone but you seriously imply that karate was for use in battle. My assertion is that karate is a civilian defence system and "designed" for use against unarmoured opponents, unarmed or armed simply or crudely -- with at most knives, sticks, or clubs.

Punching through armour is therefore not a concern.

that is just silly

Congratulations on recognising obvious intentional hyperbole.

Trust me - I know exactly how much punishment the human body can take.

How is this? Not from personal experience, I presume, since you indicate that fighting isn't real fighting unless people die:

In real combat people die. You can't measure the combat effectiveness of an art unless it is to the death.
[...]
The distinct lack of bodies at the end [shows that UFC fighters pull their punches].

Have you seen a lot of people killed? Killed a lot of people? Been killed a lot?

It is called "being polite". You don't criticise strangers for buying a Ford why would you criticise their martial art.

THIS SITE IS FOR DISCUSSING MARTIAL ARTS.

If you go to a site dedicated to finding fraud and malpractice in car manufacture, sales, and driving, which actively encourages the comparison between different makes of cars, then of course you will criticise other people's choices if you have a beef with them!

Seriously, why on Earth are you here?

Yep there is absolutely no relationship [between skill at sport fighting and real-life self defence]. You can hope and pray that if you ever get into a situation like that you will do something that is not stupid and that the opponent isn't more experienced than you. Are you saying that sparring in tournaments would give you an advantage against a seasoned SAS soldier with 5 years in combat experience?

No, his gun has a much longer range than even our jumping-in kicks.

This is a serious case of comparing apples and orange-coloured hand-grenades. The valid question is "Do you think that on average, martial artists who fight in full-contact tourmanents will beat people who do not practice full-contact sparring", to which the answer is "Hell yes" -- to my own detriment, actually, as I am not a sport fighter.

Because Ninjas are known for their unwavering dedication to telling the truth. Because they never ever hid or obscured any information.

Interesting, as

Some old japanese guy refusing to admit that he made a mistake calling himself a ninja because he will lose face is not a crime

sort of suggests that Hatsumi deliberately misrepresented himself and refused to retract his claims even when called on it -- or are you saying, then, that he's not t3h r34l |\|inJ4?

I might add as a side note that I never gained the general impression of ninjas as honourable defenders of justice. Depending on the flavour of ninja, I thought they were portrayed as (1) assassins -- not a group known for forthrightness and openness, or (2) heroes in a half-shell.

I watched some - some are truly awful. What does that mean? Some Karate, Jeet Kun Do, Kungfu and BJJ practitioners are awful. Do you mean that because of one bad person the entire martial art is rubbish?

Obviously not. However, if all footage of (for example) BJJ practitioners suggested that they sucked and/or were full of ****, I'd start getting very suspicious. If all the evidence available to us suggests that Bujinkan people are generally a few shuriken short of an assassination field kit, then of course we'll assume it's rubbish -- unless convinced otherwise.

[If you don't practice defence against hanbo, arrows and tantos] you are wasting your time doing martial arts for self defence. Statistically you will have an attacker with a weapon.

"Statistically" he will not be armed with a bow and arrows.

Meanwhile, common sense tells me that if I can't even handle an unarmed opponent, I'm extraordinarily unlikely to be able to handle someone who's armed with even so much as a pointy stick, so until I feel reasonably competent, I'm not going to worry about it. ("Reasonably competent" doesn't mean being able to beat a UFC fighter; it means having decent odds at defending myself if some drunk guy at a bar takes a swing at me, or the crazy homeless guy walking up and down the street around here flips and tries to punch me instead of thin air when he goes on a tirade.)

Like I said, I'd like to work on some knife defence at some point, but until I have rather more competence than is presently the case, I'll work on fist-to-fist. (Being able to punch a knife-wielding thug properly in the face is still better than nothing, even if I take a cut on the way in. Still, I'd rather work on my Nike-jutsu or slow, courteus Wallet-tsuki.)

Why?

Why what? Why would evidence backing up your claims help your credibility?

...Do you honestly need me to answer that question?

[Rubber Tanto]

spartan6 did you know that spartans trained in a perfect martial art named pankration(pan=all,kratos=force)meaning all power gathered in a single art...

Off topic I know, but Spartans also brought boxing as we know it to the olympics and sparred full contact from age 6, taken in to formal training at age 8 where they sparred, boxed, wrestled and trained in arms daily. That is the furthest from larping you can get...and yet you chose this as your name...

ironic

[GBLS]

GBLS,
You know very little about martial arts history let a lone Japanese history (I have a BA in Japanese Studies). You bag on SKH a few post back but use his tired line of victors write the history.

I too have studied Japanese Military History in University. My second major - which I decided not to complete - was in Japanese and Japanese History.

Since when did SKH claim to invent the phrase "the winners rewrite history"
"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it." Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philoso...the_victors.3F

There are many many examples of japanese (and non-Japanese) historical documentation being completely rewritten by the victor. God, there are whole books on the topic. Even the stories of the ninja defeating an army of 50,000 or so samurai when Toyotomi Hideyoshi are greatly exaggerated.

The Japanese are still rewriting history today. The WW2 and the sino-japanese war curriculms taught to Japanese children in schools is very flattering to the Japanese.

Japanese are anal about documentation. All Japanese secret societies have well documented information. Heck look at the wood block prints of ninja with a scroll in their mouths. Defendeding their scrolls to the death.

Firstly the concept of saving face is more important than documentation. Second, I am certain that the ninja of Iga did not need a document to tell who was a ninja or not because:
1) it would be stupid if it got in the hands of the enemy and
2) If you train with someone every day then you dont need any list.

The Non ninpo ryu-ha of the Bujinkan are legit for sure and come from Sengoku Japan

If it is really provable then Soke should produce the documentation for analysis. While in the past it was necessary to remain in secret it is a bit silly to say that these are the secret scrolls when you have the kanji for "NINJA" emblazoned on your T-shirt/gi. Today's society has embraced the ninja to the point that they are a household word. In the Meiji restoration countless plays were written on the exploits of Hattori Hanzo and the ninja.
For the honour of the Bujinkan he should put the documents for scientific analysis. The one that prove lineage.

At least if he did that it might change Bujinkan's status from maybe bullshit to a serious martial art in the eyes of its detractors.

[GBLS]

Exactly which is why martial arts that focus on fine motor skils - like Aikido, certain types of ju jitsu and various others fail in real life situations.

And therefore which is why MA, like boxing do so well in real life situations.

agreed - although hitting a target without looking at it should be a skill that people in these arts practice. I suppose it is just very hard to pull off right in an emergency situation.

Most of the Buj stuff I have seen is over complex throws and such that won't work to well when the adrenaline is flowing.

I agree that some of the throws seem a little awkward (they certainly feel it) and most of that comes from the person being unable to properly balance and stand correctly. I'm not that good so I stuff up a lot, I don't shift my weight enough but when I do the throw right it is remarkably easy and a lot less clumsy. After a while the act of standing or leaning just right is as natural as throwing a punch.

Also you can condition your "fight or flight" response which is what good quality combat sport does.

It's pretty much the only training method that will do this with some safety that you can practice on a regular basis.

I agree that you can condition your fight or flight reactions and you can limit the surge of adrenaline through regular practice, freesparring and training but that does not mean that it prepares you. You have no idea of the opponent's skill, number of opponents, weaponry or strategy. You don't know if you will freeze solid in fear, be sick, have a busted knee, have children, be on a flat or hill surface, be taller, shorter or stronger etc There are just too many variables to predict the outcome. Are your chances of survival increased? Possibly, maybe, maybe it makes no difference.

All armed forces (rightfully) focus way more on armed combat than un armed combat. Just because someone is in the SAS, marines or whatever doesn't mean they are a lethal killing machine with their bare hands able to destroy everyone.

As stated above you dont know the skill of your opponent he/she could be a SAS fresh from combat or a crazed drug-addict looking for a fix. If they have real combat experience then they have one more experience to draw from than you.