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  1. myrmecophilous is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 12:14pm


     Style: MT,BJJ noob.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    According to exrx.net and other sources, one-leg leg extensions (the last 20%-something of the range of movement) help to strenghten the vastus medialis (the muscle that keeps the kneecap in place). So that's something to consider.
    Wait.. I thought leg extensions were bad for knees? :psyduck:

    My understanding was that they create a strength imbalance which ultimately places stress on the knees, besides already being really stressful for them anyway.

    I am really neurotic about my joints. I rub tiger balm on my knees then use knee-sleeves before anything that might hurt them. I read this somewhere in this forum. I don't know if it does much, but it's hard to tell the effectiveness of a preventative measure. At any rate I haven't hurt them while doing that. But if there's more I can do, I will gladly do it.

    So please explain about the leg extensions.
  2. Neildo is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 12:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.thermoflow-health.com/product.html

    These knee bands on their own are nice but don't do much.
    However, in combination with one of these:

    Freaking long amazon link for Futuro Knee wraps

    They make my knees feel almost normal again. Plus the thermo-flow band puts a nice layer between your skin and the neoprene Futuro wrap.
  3. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:17pm


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My knees are just fine so far, but I'm also wary of this sort of thing. I was a bit surprised to hear someone recommend wearing knee braces as a purely preventative measure. I'd be curious to hear other opinions on the matter.

    Also..."How do resistance training?"
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by myrmecophilous
    Wait.. I thought leg extensions were bad for knees? :psyduck:

    My understanding was that they create a strength imbalance which ultimately places stress on the knees, besides already being really stressful for them anyway.

    I am really neurotic about my joints. I rub tiger balm on my knees then use knee-sleeves before anything that might hurt them. I read this somewhere in this forum. I don't know if it does much, but it's hard to tell the effectiveness of a preventative measure. At any rate I haven't hurt them while doing that. But if there's more I can do, I will gladly do it.

    So please explain about the leg extensions.
    Sure.

    Short answer: Vastus Medialis Weakness - http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Weak...anchor13238820

    Long Answer:

    Leg extensions (and other exercises) cause a muscular imbalance by making the vastus lateralis far stronger than the vastus medialis. BTW, this happens in some people but not in others (so it's not a 100% verdict against leg extensions.) Always remember this: the medialis is the one that pulls the kneecap in place, and single-leg leg extensions (I said single-leg) help keep a strenght balance.

    On another note: Full range of motion of the knee joint may cause problems, but only when people use too much weight. A person may squat 400lbs when stopping where the quads are parallel to the floor, BUT the same person cannot (and should not) use the same amoutn of weight executing the squat (or similar exercise) all the way down.

    Now, let's think about this. If you never train to flex and extend your knee and ankle joints with the knee joint flexed shorter than a 90 degree angle (which is where most people stop when doing squats), guess what could happen over time to your knees when you are grappling and you have to forcefully extend your leg from a position where your heels are almost touching your ass.

    Now, it is never the case that one factor alone is the cause of an injury. It's a combination of things. Muscular imbalances, inflexible ligaments, inflamation, sometimes occuring at a different location from the joint that gets injured. Your knee can go pop not just by direct pressure to the knee joint, but also by a a forcefull pivoting action on an ankle that is not flexible enough. That's just one example.

    Flexibility, muscular balance, and the usage of the full range of motion of the joint (within reason) are essencial to keep the knee healthy.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:22pm


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just saw the links in your footer, El Macho...so that's a partial answer to my question already, I guess. Thanks!
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    More food for thought:

    http://www.exrx.net/Questions/DangerousExercises.html


    It is interesting that many orthopedic surgeons denounce certain commonly performed exercises. For example, some physicians condemn squats citing how destructive they are to the knees despite scientific studies and millions of personal experiences to the contrary. It is undeniable that people can hurt themselves on any exercise, more some than others, but the issue is much more complex than the exercise itself.

    Poor form, faulty technique (including altered form due to fatigue), bad program design, insufficiant warmup, overtraining, lack of progression (eg: exercise selection, resistance, training volume), and certainly, particular biomechanical deficiencies predisposing individuals to injury are all factors that lead to injury. Also see Causes of Injury.

    .....

    Steven J. Fleck, PhD and William J. Kraemer, PhD are probably the most well respected scientists studying resistive training. Fleck and Kreamer have dedicated their careers in investigating researching, and writing both scientific and main stream publications on weight training.

    Kreighbaum (1996) states: "The physical condition of the performer dictates how safe and effective these exercises will be in the strengthening the abdominal"

    ....

    Experts such as Fleck and Nelson, as well as the ACSM weight training guidelines all recommend implimenting full range of motion resistive exercises.

    ....

    The limitations of an exercise program should be customized for each individual, not the general population as some exercise professionals have proposed. The individual's goals, medical history, orthopedic health, etc. as well as the limitations of the exercise professional's knowledge need to be considered. Obviously, certain exercises may be considered contraindicative for some people, at least until particular injuries and biomechanical deficiencies are corrected and the principles of specific adaptation can be observed.

    - If you can't use chopsticks, don't blame it on the sticks.

    - The only difference between stumbling blocks and stepping stones is the way you use them

    Granted. I took pieces from that page which I find relevant. However, I strongly suggest people visit the aforementioned link to read the full context of the article.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:29pm


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Awesome. Thanks! I'd +rep were it possible.
  8. myrmecophilous is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:38pm


     Style: MT,BJJ noob.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great, thanks El Macho
  9. bob is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 3:50pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho

    Short answer: Vastus Medialis Weakness - http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Weak...anchor13238820

    Long Answer:

    Leg extensions (and other exercises) cause a muscular imbalance by making the vastus lateralis far stronger than the vastus medialis. BTW, this happens in some people but not in others (so it's not a 100% verdict against leg extensions.) Always remember this: the medialis is the one that pulls the kneecap in place, and single-leg leg extensions (I said single-leg) help keep a strenght balance.
    To differentially strengthen vastus medialis obliquus (VMO), perform leg extensions with a very slight outward rotation of your leg. ie. your knee and foot should be pointing at either one o'clock or eleven o'clock, depending on right or left.

    Same applies for squats or lunges, though with the added proviso that if you lunge or squat, you should always ensure that your knee bends in line with your foot. Any tendency to let the knee wander inward even slightly exacerbates the imbalance. Sumo squats are good, with the feet turned at right angles to each other.

    Finally, moving up the kinetic chain, knee problems are often as much a result of hip stability problems as anything happening locally. Strengthening gluteus medius is a good start for most people (single leg hip hitches or side lying lateral leg raises.

    I should stress that if you already have knee pain, don't jump in and do any of this stuff. See a professional first. Obviously.
    Last edited by bob; 5/24/2007 3:58pm at .
  10. Gypsy Jazz is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 8:03pm


     Style: Does exercise count?

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've heard lots of bad mouthing of leg extensions over some time, but never bothered to look into them too much. Far be it from hard evidence, but in current and past physical therapy for knee issues I've had leg extensions (both legs) along with leg press, step ups, etc. I'd like to believe my physical therapists have known what they're talking about.

    Perhaps they're a no no if you do them as your primary leg exercise? Regardless they've been helpful for me as of late and some in the past and I see them being done at just about every PT place I've been.
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