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  1. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 12:17pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "If these kids can handle themselves against a reasonable yardstick (ie those of similar age/weight class) in a fully resisting environment, then I guess they deserve their ranks."

    Some of my lower color belts are not so adept. I let them know what their weaknesses are so as to improve that aspect. My blackbelts, (including the guy in a wheelchair and the guy who is 75) can hold their own in their age/weight class. Of course, for the most part that is shown out at tourneys where my school is known to have very good fighters, forms champions and weapons of which they also are as good or better than I have seen.
    The only real feedback I get is from kids, (who tend to have to defend themselves against the neighborhood bullies) I have yet had one not be the victor when they had to take on the bullie. Not saying it will never happen, but it hasn't yet. In fact I know of two instances were the bullies were older and bigger and still got their butts handed to them.

    I understand that THIS forum only concerns itself with the fighting aspects of MA. That may well be good-intentions, but it DOES take away a very important aspect of the martial arts, which is to build strong bodies AND strong minds as well as giving the confidence (yes through their self-defense ability) they gain stay with them in any other goals they wish to achieve. To say that TKD is worthless as real self-defense is both short-sighted and bias. Sure, it is not a complete fighting system ( I think kajikembo is a much better fighting art as it does cover all ranges) but it is every bit as viable as any striking art is.

    "a black belt who has lost the use of his lower limbs isn't a question of his dedication, his heart, or his spirit - it is simply just life that he can't fullfill the basic requirements of a black belt, which is to be a decent fighter."

    I respectfully disagree. I am more than a decent fighter. I have fought all my life. The wheelchair (and lack of the use of my legs) surely liimits how good a fighter I can be, it does not de facto equate to someone in a wheelchiar not being able to be a decent fighter. I have proved this to many MA masters, all of who agreed (in fact were quite impressed) with my skill level.

    "This definition is also what links all these people together, that they accomplish their purposes through increasing fighting ability - these abilities are tools with which they can achieve their goals."

    We must run in different circles. While the self-defense aspects of MA are a thing that all artists feel a brotherhood with, it is the respect, courtesy and humbleness that more so links us together.

    "The reason why your school has come under scrutiny is only because there seems to be an emphasis on the reasons to do martial arts - an emphasis that goes as far as to dwarf the definition with statements such as "martial arts is more than fighting". While there's nothing wrong with having good purpose and instilling good morals in your students (in fact it's very constructive and responsible of you as a teacher),
    One reason my school is under scrutiny (besides my friend calling it into question) is because I was not in a state of mind to debate anything. hence I came in here like a chicken with it's head cut off. THAT, more than anything, (IMO) is why my school is being scrutinized, and desevedly so.

    "there is something wrong with downplaying the fighting aspect. If you're not fighting, or learning how to fight, regardless of your intentions or secondary benefits you may incur, you aren't doing martial arts."

    I do not downplay it. As Don pointed out, when I teach techniques and stratagies for sport I never do so without reminding them that the approach and applications of TKD shift in real self-defense. And I absolutely agree with the above quote and do teach (and provide others to teach what I cannot) real self-defense. What I don't do is allow any sort of UFC approach. If I did I'd probably be sued ten times over. I do however, have a chain of people I know who do teach "no hold bars" fighting. Should any of my students show a real desire to fight at that level, (and if so I would be very proud of that student) I know people who can take them to those higher levels.

    As I said, this forum is all about the fighting aspects of martial arts, therefore any art that puts just as much emphasis on the other aspects I've already mentiond, is going to take a lot of heat in such a forum. However I feel this site does a dis-service by dis-mising any school that finds these qualities as important as figting as a "McDogo".

    I've noticed there is advertisement on this very forum that sell bogus programs, (most notably the "Fear no Man" crap). Why would a site with a mission of exposing frauds, (a noteworthy cause even if it is a bit bias) allow such absolute bunk to advertise?

    I have two forums. One is defunct for the time. But the other is a free forum and I have the option of not allowing certain ads if I do not want them there. I find it a bit lop-sided to focus so much on "McDogo's while at the same time allowing that very thing to advertise on a site dedicated to combat such shams.

    The one I mentioned as well as another, (not yet seen on this site by me) I actually had a several email discussion with them and anyone could tell what they offer is no more than bull crap. Yet they get paid well for it by advertising on sites such as this one.
  2. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 12:25pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks Don. Both for your support and patience for being willing to forgive, (not forget) how stupid my coming out in this forum toward you was.
  3. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 12:51pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don Gwinn: " 4. Child black belts grate on me a little, too. I like the BJJ solution of a junior set of belts so it's clear to the juniors that they'd have to be able to do what the grownups do before they can have a grownup belt."

    There is a diference in rank, though the belts look the same. Any blackbelt under the age of 16 is considered a "poom". There is a huge distinction between my pooms and my "Dans".
    However some of my young blackbelts can far out do the adults when it comes to good technique. Adults tend not to try the higher level techniques so much and instead concentrate on the basics. It seems the kids (I think they simply are more thirsty for skill) pick up on the basics AND the advanced techniques quicker. But then most of the kids come in with better balance and flexability (and energy) than the adults.

    "I walked out. I don't think Bill was exactly glad, but I didn't get harassed, I didn't have to fight credit card charges, nobody spread rumors about me--none of the stories we hear from people who've left McDojos."

    I wasn't mad, I wanted to keep you around because, (even though you don't agree), you trained so hard as a beginner that had I been able to retain you it would have helped raise the bar in my school. Of course the bar at my school has elevated and I know it is of no concern to you.
    Not only has no one talked badly about you, but you are still missed by the students who were there when you trained. I'm the pro, and even though you do not agree with me, I genuinely feel you could punch and (low) kick very well. Your effort was 100%. You helped me raise that level, and there are still others that still work harder after watching a guy (quite frankly) who was not built for our system, none the less worked his @ss off to do as good as he could do. If you were to walk into an adult class you would probably be greeted with a round of appluae. You are someone I still use as a model of "effort."
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:11pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Auvenshine
    I understand that THIS forum only concerns itself with the fighting aspects of MA. That may well be good-intentions, but it DOES take away a very important aspect of the martial arts, which is to build strong bodies AND strong minds as well as giving the confidence (yes through their self-defense ability) they gain stay with them in any other goals they wish to achieve. To say that TKD is worthless as real self-defense is both short-sighted and bias. Sure, it is not a complete fighting system ( I think kajikembo is a much better fighting art as it does cover all ranges) but it is every bit as viable as any striking art is.


    As I said, this forum is all about the fighting aspects of martial arts, therefore any art that puts just as much emphasis on the other aspects I've already mentiond, is going to take a lot of heat in such a forum. However I feel this site does a dis-service by dis-mising any school that finds these qualities as important as figting as a "McDogo".

    I've noticed there is advertisement on this very forum that sell bogus programs, (most notably the "Fear no Man" crap). Why would a site with a mission of exposing frauds, (a noteworthy cause even if it is a bit bias) allow such absolute bunk to advertise?

    I have two forums. One is defunct for the time. But the other is a free forum and I have the option of not allowing certain ads if I do not want them there. I find it a bit lop-sided to focus so much on "McDogo's while at the same time allowing that very thing to advertise on a site dedicated to combat such shams.
    1) Cruise the site. Many of us are defending your position and you are still shitting on all of us.
    2) This isn't a free website. Freewebs are limited and have ToS that will get you shut down. You've already implied you moderate with an iron fist. Only certain areas are moderated that way here. Also freewebs (from my understanding) can't handle the traffic here at Bullshido.

    3) Please get off the "this website only deals with fighting" we have all kinds of opinions here. Just like you want to push your philosophy, other don't think it is necessary. It takes all kinds to have a debate. Like minds make for boring conversations and low traffic.

    4) Uhmmm fighting definitely build strong bodies and other would argue strong minds. This whole perception that MMAers are dumb thugs gets really old. Yes, your implication is training without philosophy equals poor bodies and minds.

    5) Look at many of your comments. They contain bias, generalizations, all based on one idiot with a mad on. You have 6-7 people defending some of your points but, the whole site is being dismissive. Let's not forget the red herring of the internet ads.

    Attack the points raised by eldabrong and others not, the website and people defending you.
  5. Bill Auvenshine is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:14pm


     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don Gwinn: " 4. Child black belts grate on me a little, too. I like the BJJ solution of a junior set of belts so it's clear to the juniors that they'd have to be able to do what the grownups do before they can have a grownup belt."

    There is a diference in rank, though the belts look the same. Any blackbelt under the age of 16 is considered a "poom". There is a huge distinction between my pooms and my "Dans".
    However some of my young blackbelts can far out do the adults when it comes to good technique. Adults tend not to try the higher level techniques so much and instead concentrate on the basics. It seems the kids (I think they simply are more thirsty for skill) pick up on the basics AND the advanced techniques quicker. But then most of the kids come in with better balance and flexability (and energy) than the adults.

    "I walked out. I don't think Bill was exactly glad, but I didn't get harassed, I didn't have to fight credit card charges, nobody spread rumors about me--none of the stories we hear from people who've left McDojos."

    I wasn't mad, I wanted to keep you around because, (even though you don't agree), you trained so hard as a beginner that had I been able to retain you it would have helped raise the bar in my school. Of course the bar at my school has elevated and I know it is of no concern to you.
    Not only has no one talked badly about you, but you are still missed by the students who were there when you trained. I'm the pro, and even though you do not agree with me, I genuinely feel you could punch and (low) kick very well. Your effort was 100%. You helped me raise that level, and there are still others that still work harder after watching a guy (quite frankly) who was not built for our system, none the less worked his @ss off to do as good as he could do. If you were to walk into an adult class you would probably be greeted with a round of appluae. You are someone I still use as a model of "effort."

    Cnagy: "Good health is not restricted to those with trim figures. If a man can perform athletically, it doesn't matter if he looks tubby-- the internals are all in working order and healthy."

    Go tell it on the mountain brother!

    Chingythingy: "There should be a place in martial art training for those with disabilities. Trying to find their path to adapt to normal life is helped out tremendously by those who offer this."

    That is my life's endeavor. I have created a special course for people in wheelchairs but I give no rank in it nor is it a "style" so much as it is borrowing from all other arts in order to bridge the things they cannot physically possible.
    That is why I gave rank to Mr. Hicks. He trained hard for 5 years to achieve the blackbelt I gave him. While the techniques he knows are not all TKD, I am only qualified to promote blackbelts in TKD. (for now) So I felt it was not mis-representing what I do to allow him to work his way up to that level. He also knows how to teach every technique in TKD as I made that a part of his training. The old saying "He who cannot do can teach."

    "although as said before that age doesn't matter that much but if your preaching health shouldn't the black belts be well... in shape and doesn't most of the moral and mental strength come from the ability to make your self work hard and endure the suffering that comes with physically pushing yourself"

    Absolutely. They are in the best possible shape they can be in. The 75 year old student I have says he feels in better shape than when he started training at age 70. (but he is fighting age)

    One of my instructors skills dropped quite a bit after an injured knee and major surgery in another area of his health. Should I kick these guys out bcause they are not as good as they once was?

    What do you call a guy in a wheelchair ina TKD class? A target on wheels!

    It is fake: "I think everyone should be able to train an art. As long as you keep their limitations in the forefront and they understand the difference, I have no problems. The thing is many schools tell people that are blind or in wheelchairs they are on equal ground. Sorry, the truth is they aren't."

    "Glad you don't moderate here because you'd suck. Whining about our debate skill and you are doing exactly what Elda has done.

    Forced your pereceptions, philosophy, definitions and beliefs on everyone.

    Just like Elda you make assumptions about people from a single post from one member.
    One persons says stupid crap and now the whole forum can't debate.

    So, now you are doing exactly what Eldabrong was doing, judging on the surface.

    More in common then you thought."

    !00% right on spot! I came in here during a time that I have stopped debating in the forum I am a mod in. My behavior upon first posting was nothing short of pathetic. I can only hope to prove myself by staying on so that others see how out of character that was from me.

    You are absolutely correct in your assumption of my fists posts. I can only hope to rise more in your eyes by NOT being such a babbling idiot. (though I will most likely have to drop off here for a while due to family circumstances.)

    I agree wholeheartedly. I never mislead any students as to how effective they can actually be in their self-defense. I am a damn good fighter in or out of my chair. But I am no superman nor do I pretend to be one.
  6. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 1:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Auvenshine
    Some of my lower color belts are not so adept. I let them know what their weaknesses are so as to improve that aspect. My blackbelts, (including the guy in a wheelchair and the guy who is 75) can hold their own in their age/weight class. Of course, for the most part that is shown out at tourneys where my school is known to have very good fighters, forms champions and weapons of which they also are as good or better than I have seen.
    Then if they compete in a resisting environment and do well, I suppose there's no real problem with it. Some might disagree if your tournaments can actually be called "live, resisting environments" however.

    I understand that THIS forum only concerns itself with the fighting aspects of MA. That may well be good-intentions, but it DOES take away a very important aspect of the martial arts, which is to build strong bodies AND strong minds as well as giving the confidence (yes through their self-defense ability) they gain stay with them in any other goals they wish to achieve.
    Unfortunately we live in a time where there are more people putting aside the definition of martial arts - fighting - in favor of whatever reasons they do it for, and using these reasons to justify their lack of efficient training. We're not too concerned if you are doing the philosophical/moral teachings, we're more concerned with the adherence to the definition of systemized fighting. Those who stray away from what martial arts truly are - they are robbing the people who pay them to learn martial arts, and they also put their students in danger if they ever rely on the "skills" that they've been taught.

    To say that TKD is worthless as real self-defense is both short-sighted and bias. Sure, it is not a complete fighting system ( I think kajikembo is a much better fighting art as it does cover all ranges) but it is every bit as viable as any striking art is.
    You will find the TKD stigma on this forum comes from a lot of evidence in MMA/NHB competitions, as well as countless personal experiences with mainstream TKD, which for the most part, unfortunately remains mostly impractical for self defense due to the nature of their competition.

    However, there are rising stars in K1, MMA, NHB that have given some hope and shown some of the potential we might see on the horizon - fighters like Serkan Yilmaz, Juraz, Park are all coming up in the fighting circuits. So it is possible that given adequate changes in training, it has the potential to be worth as much as it did back in its conception.

    I respectfully disagree. I am more than a decent fighter. I have fought all my life. The wheelchair (and lack of the use of my legs) surely liimits how good a fighter I can be, it does not de facto equate to someone in a wheelchiar not being able to be a decent fighter. I have proved this to many MA masters, all of who agreed (in fact were quite impressed) with my skill level.
    Then, just as you would have different belts for those who are children, should we then have different belts, expectations, curriculums for those who are special as well? If we evaluate groups like children outside of the normal grading system, then surely we should do so for other groups... Basically I'm saying either we look at special people (such as the paralyzed) from the same requirements as people who are not afflicted - and they would be weaker, or we look at them in their own group, thus acknowledging them as "different" as we do with our children.

    "This definition is also what links all these people together, that they accomplish their purposes through increasing fighting ability - these abilities are tools with which they can achieve their goals."

    We must run in different circles. While the self-defense aspects of MA are a thing that all artists feel a brotherhood with, it is the respect, courtesy and humbleness that more so links us together.
    You're reading to much into it. Basic definition of a martial artist is not "one who has respect and courtesy", because then anyone who has respect and courtesy would be considered a martial artist. What I was saying is that you don't define a person as a martial artist by his traits or his purpose for training, because those traits and purpose can be found in other venues - what makes a person a martial artist first and foremost is that they are learning how to fight, because that's what martial arts IS.

    You don't call a driver a driver because he has respect and courtesy for his fellow drivers, or because he drives because one day he wants to be in NASCAR. He is a driver simply because he operates an automobile, because that's what driving is.

    "The reason why your school has come under scrutiny is only because there seems to be an emphasis on the reasons to do martial arts - an emphasis that goes as far as to dwarf the definition with statements such as "martial arts is more than fighting". While there's nothing wrong with having good purpose and instilling good morals in your students (in fact it's very constructive and responsible of you as a teacher),
    One reason my school is under scrutiny (besides my friend calling it into question) is because I was not in a state of mind to debate anything. hence I came in here like a chicken with it's head cut off. THAT, more than anything, (IMO) is why my school is being scrutinized, and desevedly so.
    Well that's what your friend was calling into question - whether you were using purpose to perhaps hide a lack of adherence to the definition of martial arts, which is fighting. Granted you came in here with guns blazing, but so far I haven't seen that much from your own posts that would label you as a die hard mcdojoist or bullshidoist.

    "there is something wrong with downplaying the fighting aspect. If you're not fighting, or learning how to fight, regardless of your intentions or secondary benefits you may incur, you aren't doing martial arts."

    I do not downplay it. As Don pointed out, when I teach techniques and stratagies for sport I never do so without reminding them that the approach and applications of TKD shift in real self-defense. And I absolutely agree with the above quote and do teach (and provide others to teach what I cannot) real self-defense.
    Then, you aren't touting bullshido, at least when you teach your sport part of it.

    What I don't do is allow any sort of UFC approach. If I did I'd probably be sued ten times over. I do however, have a chain of people I know who do teach "no hold bars" fighting. Should any of my students show a real desire to fight at that level, (and if so I would be very proud of that student) I know people who can take them to those higher levels.
    Well, I think if you are good at teaching, it doesn't matter if you teach MMA or more traditional methods, you're probably not going to get sued, unless you get really irresponsible (or take on students who are jerks). It's great that you would pass them on to people who do teach MMA though.

    As I said, this forum is all about the fighting aspects of martial arts, therefore any art that puts just as much emphasis on the other aspects I've already mentiond, is going to take a lot of heat in such a forum. However I feel this site does a dis-service by dis-mising any school that finds these qualities as important as figting as a "McDogo".
    Like I mentioned before, it's the overemphasis on the purpose for martial arts in an attempt to hide poor training that was the issue here. And technically that's "Bullshido", not "McDojo." "McDojo" is a term coined to reflect on questionable business practices, such as kiddie parties/sleepovers, contracts that lock you into paying unreasonable sums, etc.

    I've noticed there is advertisement on this very forum that sell bogus programs, (most notably the "Fear no Man" crap). Why would a site with a mission of exposing frauds, (a noteworthy cause even if it is a bit bias) allow such absolute bunk to advertise?
    That's something I wondered myself, I believe people have posted complaints about that before, but I believe the site owner allows for Google Advertising to raise some dough to pay the bills for site maintenance. I don't think he gets to pick what gets advertised. If he did, we'd have called him out on some of the **** that is advertised a long time ago.

    I have two forums. One is defunct for the time. But the other is a free forum and I have the option of not allowing certain ads if I do not want them there. I find it a bit lop-sided to focus so much on "McDogo's while at the same time allowing that very thing to advertise on a site dedicated to combat such shams.
    I agree, and again I'm not sure if Phrost has control over that, he'd be the person to talk to.
  7. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 2:01pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phrost uses Google Ads, which means you accept whatever Google puts up. I believe you can request no "adult" content, but Google uses some kind of algorithm to decide which ads go where, trying to fit the ads to the interests of the users. If you discuss martial arts, you get martial arts ads, and apparently most martial arts ads are from shysters if you judge by Google.
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  8. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 2:16pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    since this guy is pretty clearly not a bullshit artist, and since he has the nads & the courtesy to come on here & explain himself in a thoughtful manner, shouldn't this thread be moved & the title changed?
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 2:30pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Move it where?

    No, MABS is for serious discussion.

    He proved he isn't bullshido IMO but, is a little set in his ways. If it stays here there is less chance of YMAS **** talking.

    Also, people can draw their own conclusions.

    Someone called bullshido, most didn't agree.
    We have someone who has first hand experience appear.
    We have the owner/instructor appear.

    Whether anyone likes TKD, Child BB, physically challenged students, etc. etc. etc. is irrelevant. IMO he has shown he isn't Bullshido.


    This is what this area is for busting frauds or proving they aren't frauds. One happens much more often than the other.
  10. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2007 2:39pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Move it where?

    No, MABS is for serious discussion.

    He proved he isn't bullshido IMO but, is a little set in his ways. If it stays here there is less chance of YMAS **** talking.

    Also, people can draw their own conclusions.

    Someone called bullshido, most didn't agree.
    We have someone who has first hand experience appear.
    We have the owner/instructor appear.

    Whether anyone likes TKD, Child BB, physically challenged students, etc. etc. etc. is irrelevant. IMO he has shown he isn't Bullshido.


    This is what this area is for busting frauds or proving they aren't frauds. One happens much more often than the other.
    well, it seems unfair to link his name with "McDojo" in the thread title, at a minimum. someone who googles his name (or his school's) & doesn't read the whole thread might well convict him by implication.
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