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  1. OldDog53 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2007 11:56pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    ....



    It's also a "stickier" game, if you know what I mean. It's so much easier to gum up your opponent's attempts to control you because of all the extra grabbing potential, both on your gi and their gi. I also don't like being grabbed by my clothing in general. It's kind of a nuisance that I can't do much about compared to what I could do if somebody grabbed my tricep in no-gi, for instance. With the gi it's just like, "Hey! Let go!".

    I realize this probably sounds silly to most people, but that's just how I feel. I also don't like the concept of beating people up with their clothing. I think it's just...lame. This is going to sound really stupid, but I feel like real men don't choke their opponents by grabbing their collars (Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to say that no-gi is easier or anything like that). .....
    I agree, it also annoys me that I can get so bogged down in rolling because of a small grip on my gi.

    I also hate to be dependent on grabbing someone's gi, for example, at the knee, only to discover the fabric is stretched out when they are on their knees and I can't grab it. There's no time to wiggle some fabric loose for a sweep, but a no-gi grab is right there.

    I also find it really over the top when people start "undressing" their opponents, pulling skirts out from under their belt and passing it under their crotch...and other elaborate "using their clothing against them" techniques.

    I started out thinking the gi was just a comfortable, traditional uniform to train in, but the elaborate grips and "undressings" carry it too far. A collar choke is fine, a lot of people have heavy shirts or jackets, opportunistic grips to sleeves and pant cuffs are ok, but a lot of it gets carried too far. I'd rather practice stuff that can be used gi AND no gi wherever possible.

    Of course my aversion to gripping the gi leaves me slightly less effective in gi rolling (I try to minimize gi-grabbing when I roll). But I'm not nearly as crippled as my fellow students when they roll no-gi (which is rarely) and suddenly don't have any clothing to grab.

    Now there IS someone at our academy who insisted there are hardly any differences between gi and no-gi. He then proceeded to demonstrate to me a series of parallel moves in gi and no-gi pointing out the "minor" differences in grips and hooks. But the differences hardly looked minor to me! It kind of reminded me of an old professor who once told mere there were hardly any differences among the Romance languages - Italian, Spanish, French - but my poor high school Spanish hardly gives me any kind of leg up on Italian.

    I think part of the problem is that wrestlers can really shine in no-gi. Once they integrate basic jiu jitsu submissions into their grappling game, plus lose their adversion to working from their backs, they are a real handful on the mats. Put them in the gi and slow them down with grips, though, and they no longer look so hot. So I think emphasizing gi over no-gi is one way to preserve the status quo among beginners and more effectively "sell" the efficiency of jiu jitsu over high school and collegiate wrestling.

    BTW, I think it's best to train in both, fwiw.

    2nd BTW - wrestling in America tends to be hyper aggressive and injury prone. I think that's why you don't see much adult wrestling, outside of the "fake" kind on TV. But I've been told that this is partly Don Gable's legacy, and wrestling in other parts of the world is less hyper aggressive. Right now "no-gi" seems in between bjj in a gi and wrestling - not too fast, not too slow - but that might change as more wrestlers migrate into competition (only a few are doing it for fun, so far - bjj can't offer the collegiate recognition/Olympics potential that wrestling can offer them).
  2. defklown is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 2:18am

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     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OldDog53
    I also find it really over the top when people start "undressing" their opponents, pulling skirts out from under their belt and passing it under their crotch...and other elaborate "using their clothing against them" techniques.
    I definitely agree with this. Some of those are truly ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldDog53
    I think part of the problem is that wrestlers can really shine in no-gi. Once they integrate basic jiu jitsu submissions into their grappling game, plus lose their adversion to working from their backs, they are a real handful on the mats. Put them in the gi and slow them down with grips, though, and they no longer look so hot. So I think emphasizing gi over no-gi is one way to preserve the status quo among beginners and more effectively "sell" the efficiency of jiu jitsu over high school and collegiate wrestling.
    This never even occured to me before, but it seems very true. Gi grappling is such a more controlled game than no-gi that the gap between gi veterans and gi novices is huge. Whereas no-gi is less controlled and more unpredictable, so it's slightly harder for no-gi veterans to demonstrate their superiority in as dominant a fashion. The difference between how controlled each game is isn't huge or anything, but it's definitely noticeable.

    I thought some more about why I dislike gi grappling so much and then I realized that I'm a freakishly tiny grappler. 5 foot 7 and change, and 110lbs (I'm a guy). As Stephan Kesting (grapplearts.com) said...

    "Here is my one sentence summation of grappling with size differences: if you are larger than your opponent, crush him, but if you are smaller than your opponent, move around or he will crush you."

    So there you have it. Gi grappling is a more controlled game. Smaller guys need to move around and generally be weaselly and slippery. Therefore, smaller guys have a tougher time in gi grappling.

    ...And I still think that beating somebody up by grabbing their clothing is incredibly lame, but that's just because I'm a biased asshole.

    Hey, check it out, we actually brought something new to the gi Vs. no-gi table.
  3. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 2:19am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do gi and nogi. FWIW, my nogi and gi games are about comparable (I suck at both!). But if I do a lot of nogi and neglect gi, my gi game suffers a lot. If I do a lot of gi, and neglect nogi, my nogi game doesn't suffer much.

    My gi and nogi games are very similar and I use nearly identical techniques in both. A kimura from side control is a kimura from side control, if you know what I mean. But I don't really play a fancy open guard game or use too many collar chokes with the gi. I do miss my Ezequiel sleeves though :(
  4. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 2:24am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    So there you have it. Gi grappling is a more controlled game. Smaller guys need to move around and generally be weaselly and slippery. Therefore, smaller guys have a tougher time in gi grappling.
    Wrong. Very, very wrong! Smaller guys often excel at gi grappling, especially if they are flexible. The gi allows smaller guys to control bigger guys and keep them at a distance, for example, by doing annoying open guard crap you can't do without a gi.
    Last edited by Res Judicata; 5/20/2007 2:31am at .
  5. vinhthekid is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 2:35am


     Style: BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    www.roninathletics.com

    SBGi New York, on 37th and 7th, a great overall MMA school that focuses on no gi jits.

    great teacher, great friendly crew of guys and lowest price you'll find in the city.
  6. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 4:15am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    I definitely agree with this. Some of those are truly ridiculous.
    If it works consistently, is it then ridiculous? I've heard similar claims applied over the years to leglocks and wristlocks. If you get worked by odd gi grips, deal with them. I've used techniques in no-gi just as odd.

    I have a training partner who consistently tries to get his feet in my gi collar from any angle. Over time I've learned how to deal with this, in spite of it being illegal in competition, and in fact how to really ruin his day with foot locks from certain position. It makes you think more strategically, as you've stated, which is beneficial to your overall game and development as a grappler

    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    This never even occured to me before, but it seems very true. Gi grappling is such a more controlled game than no-gi that the gap between gi veterans and gi novices is huge.
    That's crap. I've seen no-gi novices get tooled just as badly as gi novices.

    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    Whereas no-gi is less controlled and more unpredictable, so it's slightly harder for no-gi veterans to demonstrate their superiority in as dominant a fashion. The difference between how controlled each game is isn't huge or anything, but it's definitely noticeable.
    Gi = easier for you to get away with poor control of an opponent/harder to get away with sloppy submission or positional defence - easier for you to tap people with somewhat sloppy submission skills.

    No-gi = harder for you to get away with poor control of an opponent/easier for you to get away with sloppy submission and positional defence - tighter submission skills needed.

    They are highly complementary. However, the reason that you see few, if any pure no-gi guys up there on the Abu Dhabi podium is the better submission and positional defence that guys who train in the gi possess. No gi is more forgiving in many ways to the guy with the sloppy guard or shitty sweeps, because it favors athleticism and explosiveness more due to the lack of friction.

    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    I thought some more about why I dislike gi grappling so much and then I realized that I'm a freakishly tiny grappler. 5 foot 7 and change, and 110lbs (I'm a guy). As Stephan Kesting (grapplearts.com) said...

    "Here is my one sentence summation of grappling with size differences: if you are larger than your opponent, crush him, but if you are smaller than your opponent, move around or he will crush you."

    So there you have it. Gi grappling is a more controlled game. Smaller guys need to move around and generally be weaselly and slippery. Therefore, smaller guys have a tougher time in gi grappling.
    Kesting is recommending strategies - big guy BJJ vs. little guy BJJ. He's stating that you should be equally adept at both when the situation demands it. You seem to be taking this way out of context to prove your contention. I can crush just as well with a gi as I can without it as can most bigger guys
  7. defklown is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 5:23am

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     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata
    Wrong. Very, very wrong! Smaller guys often excel at gi grappling, especially if they are flexible. The gi allows smaller guys to control bigger guys and keep them at a distance, for example, by doing annoying open guard crap you can't do without a gi.
    Well, the general idea is that small guys will lose direct struggles with big guys, and in order for them to win they need to keep moving and generally be weaselly. Also, as a general observation, gi grappling does not allow for as much rapidity and movement as no-gi grappling does. It's a more controlled, strategic game. Wouldn't you say these are both fair claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by vinhthekid
    SBGi New York, on 37th and 7th, a great overall MMA school that focuses on no gi jits.

    great teacher, great friendly crew of guys and lowest price you'll find in the city.
    Thanks, this looks really good.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
    That's crap. I've seen no-gi novices get tooled just as badly as gi novices.
    I'm not saying that no-gi novices don't get dominated by no-gi veterans, I'm just saying that the experience of a no-gi veteran can't be wielded as effectively and consistently as the experience of a gi veteran, because the no-gi game is a bit less controlled.

    All my claims about no-gi Vs. gi BJJ depend on this central point: no-gi BJJ tends to be slightly less "sticky", slightly less strategic, and slightly faster. I'm collectively referring to these by saying that no-gi BJJ is less controlled. Do people agree with this?


    Hmmm...this thread isn't exactly about manhattan BJJ anymore. Maybe all the gi Vs. no-gi posts should get moved to a separate thread?
    Last edited by defklown; 5/20/2007 5:47am at .
  8. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 6:22am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    I'm not saying that no-gi novices don't get dominated by no-gi veterans, I'm just saying that the experience of a no-gi veteran can't be wielded as effectively and consistently as the experience of a gi veteran, because the no-gi game is a bit less controlled.
    I still believe that's incorrect. The only thing that may hinder a no-gi veteran in the speedy submission/domination of a no-gi novice is the ability of the no-gi novice to get away with sloppy defensive and positional escape tools. Personally, this doesn't really faze me when rolling with noobs (bigger or smaller) without the gi. My training partner's experience has been much the same. No gi forces you to develop tighter positional control over time to overcome the athletic advantage that others have due to the lack of clothing friction.

    Additionally, this seems to be the reuse of yet another 'add esoteric technique X and I will be able to pwn teh higher rank' argument. I experienced one person trying to do it to me, and I called my first submission before I'd even started rolling. Nailed my kneebar from half-guard in under a minute. Putting one's faith in equalizers is a poor substitute for more training within the variables to figure out how they are done.

    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    All my claims about no-gi Vs. gi BJJ depend on this central point: no-gi BJJ tends to be slightly less "sticky", slightly less strategic, and slightly faster. I'm collectively referring to these by saying that no-gi BJJ is less controlled. Do people agree with this?
    No gi has less friction. It is in no way less strategic than gi BJJ. The assumption that just because it can be quicker and more mobile it is therefore less strategic belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the no-gi game.
  9. defklown is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 6:49am

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     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
    I still believe that's incorrect. The only thing that may hinder a no-gi veteran in the speedy submission/domination of a no-gi novice is the ability of the no-gi novice to get away with sloppy defensive and positional escape tools.
    So you don't think that their ability to get away with sloppy sub/position escapes means your ability to control them is diminished?

    Quote Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
    No gi forces you to develop tighter positional control over time to overcome the athletic advantage that others have due to the lack of clothing friction.
    This sounds pretty reasonable to me. Wouldn't you say it forces you to have tighter (literally) submission attempts as well, for the same reason? Wouldn't you say the absence of the gi grips makes it more difficult to control your opponent in general? This is all I'm trying to say here.

    Quote Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
    No gi has less friction. It is in no way less strategic than gi BJJ. The assumption that just because it can be quicker and more mobile it is therefore less strategic belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the no-gi game.
    I don't have nearly enough gi experience to be able to demonstrate how the gi game is more strategic. This is just something that many people have told me, and that I've assumed to be true because your opponent's constant grabbing of your gi whenever you try to do something hinders your free mobility, slows the game down, adds an extra element to the game, and makes you think more. I sincerely thought there was a general consensus that the gi game was slightly slower and slightly more strategic.

    I don't want to leap into another huge claim before finishing up the one I already made, but...aren't there more available transitions (guard passes etc) and submissions in gi BJJ?
  10. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2007 7:24am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    So you don't think that their ability to get away with sloppy sub/position escapes means your ability to control them is diminished?
    I'm stating that the extent that you seem to believe the ability of a no-gi veteran to control a no-gi novice is far greater than the reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    This sounds pretty reasonable to me. Wouldn't you say it forces you to have tighter (literally) submission attempts as well, for the same reason? Wouldn't you say the absence of the gi grips makes it more difficult to control your opponent in general? This is all I'm trying to say here.
    I stated the same thing in my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by defklown
    I don't have nearly enough gi experience to be able to demonstrate how the gi game is more strategic. This is just something that many people have told me, and that I've assumed to be true because your opponent's constant grabbing of your gi whenever you try to do something hinders your free mobility, slows the game down, adds an extra element to the game, and makes you think more. I sincerely thought there was a general consensus that the gi game was slightly slower and slightly more strategic.
    I don't believe that either game is more strategic than the other. I just believe that the available grips and friction make things...different - each game has its own available strategies that may or may not overlap, with, IMO, no greater amount of strategies for either game

    Chokes available in no-gi, such as the RNC and guillotine, tend to be harder to get with the gi, whereas chokes like ezekiels and clock chokes become more difficult to nail without the gi (yes, they are available no-gi) Leg locks become more accessible due to the lack of gi grips, which adds another level of strategy to the guard. Seated guard requires a greater amount of control without the gi in order to become viable.
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