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  1. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 9:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To Hands: Which throw did you have in mind?

    To Iso8ted: Yes they are good conditioning, but conditioning for what?
  2. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 9:36am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you can certainly use horse stance to counter a hip throw.

    all TCMA stance work is useful for training to be balanced in various positions, and learning to drop your weight into strikes.

    squats are great and i suggest that students do them. they do not work the legs in the same way as horse stance.

    i can elaborate in person at the next new york throwdown with anyone who really wants to know, but i'm not going to get into an internet pissing match with a guy like virus who just comes to the CMA forum to troll and doesn't really want to discuss anything.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  3. isol8d is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 9:51am


     Style: kung fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    To Hands: Which throw did you have in mind?

    To Iso8ted: Yes they are good conditioning, but conditioning for what?
    Chinese Martial Arts (rimshot please)

    Physical training for building leg strength and endurance. It can help build mental toughness too.

    Let's also define horse stance "training". For me, most of my classes start up with 2-5 minutes of a "riding horse stance", then 2-5 minutes of a "hill climbing/bow horse stance", combined with breathing exercises, followed up with the rest of our "basics", stretching, kicking, bridges....

    Other times we'll run or do calisthenics, or both.

    The other "stance" training we'll do is either a basic set of transition footwork, or contests to see who can keep a stance without falling out first. That happens maybe once or twice a year.....
  4. Istislah is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 10:53am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Mantis Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We only do Ba Shi (eight stances- horse stance is one of them) infrequently in class; Mostly to check our form with the intention that we will do it at home. If you're doing the whole sequence of 8 stances for a minute each on each side you're looking at 16 minutes of valuable class time so it's much better as "homework".

    It's not the most efficient strength builder as others have pointed out though it does have the advantages of requiring absolutely no equipment, very little space and won't disturb a downstairs neighbor. Also I find it pretty relaxing as a form of standing meditiation (not saying this makes me a better fighter- just saying it's calming).

    What I have found the stances useful for is helping with proper form during sparring. Mostly the stances are the "endpoints" of movements. While there obviously isn't a whole lot of point in training the ability to hold for minutes at time the stance you'll be in for a quarter of a second at the end of a sweep or strike- I have found that doing so has made it more likely that I'll actually end up in the proper form and therefore generate the proper force and maintain balance when executing techniques in sparring. I've noticed that effect particularly towards the end of a sparring session/round.

    The more tired and gassed I am the harder it is to get my body to do what it's supposed to- by conditioning the stance for moderate periods (1-2 minutes) I'm making it easier on myself to fall naturally into that posture and maintain balance for that quarter second during the execution of a technigue when my legs are screaming at me to just take a freaking rest already. Squats do a better job of making your legs and lower body stronger and everyone should definitely do them but they're not going to reinforce proper technique and footwork.
  5. EmetShamash is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 3:20pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What about using weights in horse stance? I know people do a whole lot of stuff in horse stance like different weight excercises for the arms or putting a weight on the shoulders. Could doing horse stance with lots of weight be more acceptable to the naysayers?
  6. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 6:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It does build leg strength and endurance but only at that particular angle that your legs are in when doing a horse stance. It won't significantly transition to building strength in movements like hip and knee extension, which is used a lot more in martial arts than static wide squats. It's static strength whereas martial arts depends far more on dynamic strength, which is strength throughout particular ranges of motion.

    As for throw defense, yes I am familiar with dropping your weight low when someone moves into a hip throw but performing extended horse stances won't elicit a very significant benefit to that movement because you resist gravity (straight down) when you do horse stances and being picked up by a throw provides resistance pulling you up, the excat opposite angle of resistance. The throw will only last a split second whereas horse stances have to be done for minutes to start providing overload. They rely on different energy systems of the body which have to be trained differently. One is muscular endurance (Horse stance) the other is strength and power. Endurance uses anaerobic glycolosys, whereas power uses the phosphate system.

    If someone was set on developing power in dropping their weight for hip-throw defense, then something like holding a tricep-pulldown cable to your chest and squatting down would be a better conditioner becuase it would actually resist in the correct angle.
  7. Hands is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 8:11pm


     Style: Mongolian

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    To Hands: Which throw did you have in mind?
    Its a throw where you step into horse stance and bump your opponent with your hip as you step into it. The lead leg is behind them. The bump is like a hip check to throw them off balance. You then swing them over your thigh.
  8. Hands is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 8:19pm


     Style: Mongolian

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, first school I ever trained at held a lot of stances for 30 seconds or more. I was there about 6 months before going to a different school. The new school didn't hold static positions but emphasized staying low and moving into different stances or simply low stance footwork. This was a good workout. After about three months at the school I went back to the old one for New Years Day practice. We did some form which held stances for 2 minutes each. I think the form was about 20 different positions. I was able to hold stances far better than I did before and better than everyone else there. After that I pretty much wrote off the iron stance training.
  9. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 11:30am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is not exactly CMA, but it applies:
    If you ever watch krabi krabong matches with mai soks (big tonfas), a low sideways horse stance is used as a defensive stance. Why? When you drop into a low stance, you can defend the legs with the tonfas, which you couldn't do otherwise. Its a weird specific example but it came to mind.
  10. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 12:00pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    They tend to use the horse stance in striking arts and I can't think of any time you use that position in standing striking.
    0.59 to 1:05, just after the KTFO screen
    1:35 to 1:38
    2:37 to 2:39
    :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=http:...?v=EsvkwUaHV2U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvkwUaHV2U

    Awesome clip, btw, and the music by these aussie guys rocks.
    Last edited by DCS; 5/18/2007 3:13pm at .
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