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  1. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2007 1:07pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Is a 5x5 strength routine going to be suitable for an MMAist?

    Or is it just going to lead to burnout?

    I'm talking about the Bill Starr 5x5 program, which can be found in one of it's variations here:

    http://www.eclipsegym.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57

    First of all, a bit about my goals.

    I'm currently 155lbs and wanting to significantly increase strength/power whilst not putting on any more than 10lbs in weight as i'm already around my natural fighting weight, but would be happy to cut about that much. Training for MMA so all round explosiveness is required.

    My sport specific training is usually structured as follows at the moment:

    Monday - Muay Thai 7-8pm, sub. Wrestling 8-9pm

    Tuesday - Muay Thai 8-9pm, rolling session 9-10pm

    Thursday - sub wrestling 7-8pm, Muay Thai 8-9pm, Sparring 9-10pm

    Saturday - MMA 12-1:30pm

    Also throw in bag work whenever i get some time, usually friday evenings.


    The sample program taken from the link above is as follows:

    WEEK 1

    Format - Weights x reps x sets

    Workout 1 (monday) rest at least 5 min in-between squat and row sets.

    Bench: 45x5, 50x5, 55x5, 60x5, 65x5

    Squat: 80x5x5 (warmup 45x5)

    Row: 90x5x5 (no warmup since rows follow squats) - again, we are practicing form here

    Workout 2 (wednesday)

    Deadlift: 140x5x5

    Squat: 65x5x5

    Military press: 55x5x4 (4 sets)

    Pullups: Bodyweight x5x5

    Workout 3 (friday)

    Bench: 60x5x5

    Squat: 45x5, 55x5, 65x5, 75x5, 95x5

    Row: 95x5x5 (again no warmup) - here we just added 5lbs since we are practicing the form with rubber bumper plates.
    I've heard the gains are great from so many people but does this program totally rinse you out as from what i've read it seems that it was originated for footballers to train strength/power in the 'off-season' period. Obviously in martial arts there is no 'off-season'!

    The reason i ask about the suitability/burnout is because the above post places a lot of emphasis on rest for obvious reasons, but doesn't make clear whether that is rest from weights or all activities?

    My diet is good, could possibly do with more supplementation though to help aid recovery.

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by spirez; 5/12/2007 1:20pm at .
  2. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/12/2007 7:50pm

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     Style: Guns

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Active rest" is the rule for serious lifters; you don't have to lay around and in fact you shouldn't. On the other hand, you're working pretty hard at your MA training.

    One easy thing you could do is to throw out some of the program. Bench press, for example, isn't really necessary unless you're a powerlifter for whom bench pressing is a part of your competition. For everyone else, not so much. If you're squatting and deadlifting that much, you'll see the power come up. Bench won't do much but increase your bench. Honestly, I think heavy bench pressing in my youth cost me a lot of practical pressing power (overhead pressing) by messing with my shoulders.

    A lot of (American) football coaches are obsessed with big bench numbers. The old-time wrestlers and strongmen, back before athletes decided that weight-lifting is bad for you, didn't bench press as a rule.

    Honestly, the program doesn't really matter much as long as it's consistent. Consistency in the program allows you to track progression; progression makes you stronger.
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  3. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2007 3:00am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What do you mean there is no "off season"? Do you have a fight coming up soon? I would imagine an off season is dependant on your fight schedule. For example you I have a fight coming in a few months everything up to maybe 6 weeks prior could be considered "off" right? Then you taper off lifting and focus more on cardio and such? Just a thought.

    I lift 2x a week and it has not interfered with my training too much no matter if I was training 1x or 7x a week in MA. Just make sure you eat and rest to account for it. Also some supplements on top of a healthy diet would help. Eat lots and eat healthy.
  4. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2007 3:45am


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cheers guys.

    Don, about cutting out bench press, would this not lead to muscular imbalance throughout the body as a whole, based on the principle of all the muscle groups in the body working as a chain? When i think of an opponent being on top of me ie side mount or something, i want to press them off to create a little space too.

    There's a quote in there somewhere about if you do not follow the program exactly then it will be nowhere near as effective, kind of like when casual meatheads don't train their legs, although i can't atest to this having never followed a strict strength program.

    LI GUY 1, i suppose by saying there is no off season, i mean the fact that there is no long break from sport specific training as you get in football. I.E. in England, the soccer season is from August to May, players then have 4-6 weeks break where they won't really train soccer, before starting pre-season training and then getting into the next season.

    I see your point about the time leading up to a fight, but what i don't want to do is start a hardcore lifting routine and then not be able to get the most out of my training in the evening!

    Cheers
  5. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2007 11:17pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I understand you not wanting to do hard weight training as it may interfere with the evening training. But it shouldn't unless you always train at a 100% balls to the wall way in MA. Which I would imagine no one does or should do.

    Also, it is a trade off. To get stronger you have less time for MA. To get more skill in MA you have less time for strength. Same with cardio and everything else. I lift though because I beleive a stronger me is a better MA'ist.
  6. biomed190 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2007 11:27pm


     Style: JKD BJJ JUDO MUY THAI

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good questing about lifting. I have been doing BJJ along with my HKD. I want to increase muscular endurance. I lift 3X a week and try to do a full body workout. Usually 3X10 on the major lifts. I was thinking of going to 3X15 to increase my endurance. Anybody else do 15 reps?
  7. Liffguard is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2007 7:39am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with the guys saying that bench isn't that important. A good substitute would be dips as it's more of a compound exercise that still works the chest.

    Also, I'd personally recommend finding the time to do some overhead squats. It's an awesome lift that does wonders for core stability, back and shoulders.
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  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2007 9:01am

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Liffguard
    I agree with the guys saying that bench isn't that important. A good substitute would be dips as it's more of a compound exercise that still works the chest.

    Also, I'd personally recommend finding the time to do some overhead squats. It's an awesome lift that does wonders for core stability, back and shoulders.
    Ditto here. Cleans and deadlifts are also great. Ross Enamait seems keen on one-hand dumbell bench presses (and many one-limb variations of other exercises.)

    One thing that's also good for strenght is one-hand push ups. For most people who have never tried them, it would be a challenge to do 3-5 (which makes them almost perfect for a 5x5 routine for the novice.)
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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  9. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2007 11:02am

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     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One piece of gold from the starting strength book. It helps to be a bit more specific about your training goal and this chart lays it out.




    So with that we can see how the 5x5 will effect our workout results. And we can see the same with the 3x15. So how close is your proposed workout to the results you want?
    Last edited by PirateJon; 5/14/2007 11:06am at .
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  10. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2007 12:10pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by biomed190
    Good questing about lifting. I have been doing BJJ along with my HKD. I want to increase muscular endurance. I lift 3X a week and try to do a full body workout. Usually 3X10 on the major lifts. I was thinking of going to 3X15 to increase my endurance. Anybody else do 15 reps?
    I don't think I would use weights for muscular endurance. Just like I don't run track to ge strong. Maybe doing complexes but thats a different kind of cardio, not muscular endurance.

    I had trouble with muscular endurance in BJJ, example my arm/grip tiring out when fighting for a RNC. Bodyweight exercises cured that quick and well. I did sets of pushup, pullups, and divebombers after my weight training.
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