Crawford didn't fight MMA either, but before he started training fighters (for Pankration back in 1995ish), he'd done alive arts like Judo, Sambo, Boxing, etc.
Originally Posted by Whorian Gracie
The question is, are these new MMA Instructor "trainees" coming from a background that includes the fundamentals of what makes MMA work (full contact, "alive" training) or from training methods that are generally less or in-effective for producing good fighters (forms, complaint drills, etc)?
I'm sure everyone here would go to a NASCAR driving school taught by Jeff Gordon (if you were into driving in a circle for hours at high speeds). But would you go to a driving school run by some guy who's never been on the track, but was taught how to teach a driving school by Jeff Gordon?
"Not as good" by far.
Originally Posted by Whorian Gracie
If the situation is as I suspect (and I am being very careful here to avoid rushing to judgement until all the facts are in), it's not a matter of the info being "second hand". You simply cannot teach a skill in the Martial Arts effectively unless you have mastery of that skill.
Grappling, for example: unless you have some serious grappling ability, there is no way you can impart the little nuances that are vastly important to your students. The guard isn't just closing your legs around someone. An armbar isn't just trying to bend someone's arm the wrong way.
Now, with all of this said:
This has the potential to be really good for Martial Arts, or really, really bad. And it all hinges on whether or not these new "MMA instructors" actually pursue success in MMA, or if they avoid actual sparring and rolling themselves.
Originally Posted by Phrost
It's more like this. PMA is trying to introduce a level of "aliveness" and proper modern training to traditional schools. It's really wierd that we bag on these schools when they're not doing this and when they try to do it we bag on them some more. Kinda of a no win situation.
This is a better format then an instructor that took a 1 hour seminar got a certificate and claims to teach mma. It's an ongoing process.
Well, I don't know how typical the PMA school up in Waco is, but according to Lane, Phil Cardella (black belt under Relson Gracie) teaches GJJ up there from time to time. I know there is a Relson Gracie club up in Waco that Phil helps oversee, so Phil may very well help out at the PMA school, too. I'll ask him when he gets back from the Gracie Fighting Championships up in Columbus, OH. If Phil is teaching GJJ there on any kind of regular basis, they are getting quality instruction on that count.
Both Omega and I agree that we should give this some time and then re-evaluate things down the road.
I think as long as a close, but objective, eye is kept on the program then it should be ok. If the guys at PMA know that they have a very large, extremely vocal, and influential martial arts community taking this much of an interest in this program then that in of itself would be a form of quality control.
Originally Posted by Phrost
I've trained with one of the PMA instructors (for a brief period) outside of the school and the training was dead on. He made no false promises and let me know his experience and limitations up front. If he's an example of the rest of the organization, they've won me over.
A lot of folks here are making assumptions about the organization based on no first hand knowledge. I see a lot of "if" statements. At first I was a bit skeptical because of the billboard advertisement in front of my workplace. After a chance meeting, some conversation, and some training, my opinion changed and I was humbled. I suggest if you're truly interested, you give the organization a try. Otherwise your opinion is based on, at best, second hand knowledge (which really doesn't amount to much).
Dude, I don't know about this one. If PMA is positioning themselves as seminar facilitators for booking Hermes Franca to go and teach _ing _un schools how to train MMA I'm all for it.
If that really is their web site listed a little earlier it really reeks of pyramid marketing scheme McDojoism, though.
I just chimed into this spin-off thread. I have been in Russia for 2 weeks, had no idea this thread was going on.
I agree, that it is a wait and see situation. Talk is talk and action is action. So far the talk sounds good to some (though the whole concept of franchised or standardized mma still really irks me), but let's see what the outcome is. Like it has been said by many here...it is about honesty in training and about honesty in regards to what is being sold to the students.
As a school owner, I now how hard it is to succeed and I know that only a small % of students will aspire to a competative level. There is nothing wrong with marketing, fitness classes, and all that jazz, but, it is about honesty in the end. In my club, with rare exceptions, everyone spars...it it a must. If people don't want to do that, there are plenty of other clubs in NYC that can match their needs. But, that is the flavor of my club and I am honest about it with people when they come. I don't see a problem with fitness oriented classes, etc...just be clear and honest about what they truly offer a student.
For my money, the wonderful thing about mma is that by nature it can't be standardized. This is what makes the sport so great. Sure, particular approaches can be taught and supported, but MMA is a unique animal in that there are a multitude of raods and strategies that can get you where you need to go. And as Phrost said, if you take the "fight" out of MMA, it is not MMA anymore. By nature MMA involves fighting...MMA is not defined by it's training methods, it is defined by the fact that people fight...from differing training backgrounds.
Yes, there are folks who will never want to be a pro or amateur fighter or ever desire to step into the ring, cage, or mat, but if they don't do live work or spar, it is not MMA in my book. It is like being great at hitting balls in a batting cage or driving golf balls at a driving range. Good skills, but it is not baseball or golf. Same with MMA...having a skill set or training regimen "like" an mma fighter, does not make what you do MMA.
So, for me, it is time to be cool, and give PMA a shot to walk the talk. Give them props for their intentions and willingness to engage questions about their goals, but wait and see what the results are.
It seemed to me that most posters here were at least willing to give the whole PMA MMA thing a grain a salt and time to see how it worked out.
Now, a year later, we should look at it and see.
In April, there was a PMA guy at the ISCF Amateur MMA worlds who did real well. I forget his name now.
I am interested to know however, whether the Armory is still affiliated with PMA?
The main PMA website now makes no mention of MMA: www.pmaschools.com
The Armory no longer makes mention of premier on their website: www.thearmory.tv
However, the Austin PMA branch does seem to be promoting Pelligrino as a PMA guy:
The NYC area PMA schools has some credible coaches and also promotes MMA and grappling. Their BJJ coach for example, Daniel Roupinol, is very legit. I have seem him compete several times...in advanced and pro division events: http://www.manhattantkd.cmasdirect.c...anJiuJitsu.pml
On a side note, His bio does include a complete mis-statement in regards to his "win" at the battle of brooklyn...which I happened to referee and co-promote...LOL. He fought Mike Wacker to a draw in a 10 minute submission or draw match (with 2 min overtiem). He earned a draw, not a win. He did argue with me that he would have won in a tournament and seemed embarrassed to have lost to a brown belt...especially since he was expected to win by many. But, he did not win that match. I will write to them about this. I would have never seen this without this thread...LOL.
But, in regards to PMA NY, most of the instructors on the staff page have no bios and little information:
So, as we figured before, I suspect it is like any other school. Check out the coaches before you join to see if they offer what you want.
Last edited by sambosteve; 7/07/2008 11:26pm at .