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  1. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 10:07pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whorian Gracie
    I have several friends who coach for MMA who have never been in a MMA fight. They all have a lot of competition in their own fields and they all produce some pretty good fighters (obviously slanted towards their own specialty.)

    From owning several schools, I can understand the point Omega is making. There is a lot of pressure to keep a school open and you will only have a limited # of people who actually want to train to that level. I am not sure that PMA people are approaching it from quite the correct angle though. It would be one thing to have a fighter/trainer make their training more available to more people by reducing the contact, intensity, etc. It is another thing to have people who can't fight for a lick try to pretend to bring their game up to the level of an actual fighter. I am not sure if that is what PMA is doing. I'd have to stop into one of their locations to judge for myself.
    Crawford didn't fight MMA either, but before he started training fighters (for Pankration back in 1995ish), he'd done alive arts like Judo, Sambo, Boxing, etc.

    The question is, are these new MMA Instructor "trainees" coming from a background that includes the fundamentals of what makes MMA work (full contact, "alive" training) or from training methods that are generally less or in-effective for producing good fighters (forms, complaint drills, etc)?

    I'm sure everyone here would go to a NASCAR driving school taught by Jeff Gordon (if you were into driving in a circle for hours at high speeds). But would you go to a driving school run by some guy who's never been on the track, but was taught how to teach a driving school by Jeff Gordon?
  2. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 8:59am

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Whorian Gracie
    2nd edit: Good point though. 2nd hand info is not as good as 1st hand.
    "Not as good" by far.

    If the situation is as I suspect (and I am being very careful here to avoid rushing to judgement until all the facts are in), it's not a matter of the info being "second hand". You simply cannot teach a skill in the Martial Arts effectively unless you have mastery of that skill.

    Grappling, for example: unless you have some serious grappling ability, there is no way you can impart the little nuances that are vastly important to your students. The guard isn't just closing your legs around someone. An armbar isn't just trying to bend someone's arm the wrong way.

    Now, with all of this said:

    This has the potential to be really good for Martial Arts, or really, really bad. And it all hinges on whether or not these new "MMA instructors" actually pursue success in MMA, or if they avoid actual sparring and rolling themselves.
  3. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 11:24am

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Ok, now that I've had some time to get into this, and read a bit of the original thread.

    So let me get this straight:

    • PMA has a highly profitable school chain that previously did not include any MMA-related training.
    • PMA is now adding an MMA section, in response to the growing popularity of MMA over what is considered "traditional" training.
    • Current PMA instructors are being re-trained by MMA fighters to become MMA instructors.

    This last bit is what I'm fuzzy about and would like clarification. Does this mean there will be a lot of "MMA Instructors" around the country who haven't actually fought in MMA?

    It's more like this. PMA is trying to introduce a level of "aliveness" and proper modern training to traditional schools. It's really wierd that we bag on these schools when they're not doing this and when they try to do it we bag on them some more. Kinda of a no win situation.

    This is a better format then an instructor that took a 1 hour seminar got a certificate and claims to teach mma. It's an ongoing process.
  4. TEA is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 1:54pm

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     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I don't know how typical the PMA school up in Waco is, but according to Lane, Phil Cardella (black belt under Relson Gracie) teaches GJJ up there from time to time. I know there is a Relson Gracie club up in Waco that Phil helps oversee, so Phil may very well help out at the PMA school, too. I'll ask him when he gets back from the Gracie Fighting Championships up in Columbus, OH. If Phil is teaching GJJ there on any kind of regular basis, they are getting quality instruction on that count.
  5. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 3:47pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Both Omega and I agree that we should give this some time and then re-evaluate things down the road.
  6. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 4:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Both Omega and I agree that we should give this some time and then re-evaluate things down the road.
    I think as long as a close, but objective, eye is kept on the program then it should be ok. If the guys at PMA know that they have a very large, extremely vocal, and influential martial arts community taking this much of an interest in this program then that in of itself would be a form of quality control.
  7. Willannem is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2007 11:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Traditional Jujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've trained with one of the PMA instructors (for a brief period) outside of the school and the training was dead on. He made no false promises and let me know his experience and limitations up front. If he's an example of the rest of the organization, they've won me over.

    A lot of folks here are making assumptions about the organization based on no first hand knowledge. I see a lot of "if" statements. At first I was a bit skeptical because of the billboard advertisement in front of my workplace. After a chance meeting, some conversation, and some training, my opinion changed and I was humbled. I suggest if you're truly interested, you give the organization a try. Otherwise your opinion is based on, at best, second hand knowledge (which really doesn't amount to much).
  8. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2007 10:52am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude, I don't know about this one. If PMA is positioning themselves as seminar facilitators for booking Hermes Franca to go and teach _ing _un schools how to train MMA I'm all for it.

    If that really is their web site listed a little earlier it really reeks of pyramid marketing scheme McDojoism, though.
  9. sambosteve is online now
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2007 10:28am

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     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just chimed into this spin-off thread. I have been in Russia for 2 weeks, had no idea this thread was going on.

    I agree, that it is a wait and see situation. Talk is talk and action is action. So far the talk sounds good to some (though the whole concept of franchised or standardized mma still really irks me), but let's see what the outcome is. Like it has been said by many here...it is about honesty in training and about honesty in regards to what is being sold to the students.

    As a school owner, I now how hard it is to succeed and I know that only a small % of students will aspire to a competative level. There is nothing wrong with marketing, fitness classes, and all that jazz, but, it is about honesty in the end. In my club, with rare exceptions, everyone spars...it it a must. If people don't want to do that, there are plenty of other clubs in NYC that can match their needs. But, that is the flavor of my club and I am honest about it with people when they come. I don't see a problem with fitness oriented classes, etc...just be clear and honest about what they truly offer a student.

    For my money, the wonderful thing about mma is that by nature it can't be standardized. This is what makes the sport so great. Sure, particular approaches can be taught and supported, but MMA is a unique animal in that there are a multitude of raods and strategies that can get you where you need to go. And as Phrost said, if you take the "fight" out of MMA, it is not MMA anymore. By nature MMA involves fighting...MMA is not defined by it's training methods, it is defined by the fact that people fight...from differing training backgrounds.

    Yes, there are folks who will never want to be a pro or amateur fighter or ever desire to step into the ring, cage, or mat, but if they don't do live work or spar, it is not MMA in my book. It is like being great at hitting balls in a batting cage or driving golf balls at a driving range. Good skills, but it is not baseball or golf. Same with MMA...having a skill set or training regimen "like" an mma fighter, does not make what you do MMA.

    So, for me, it is time to be cool, and give PMA a shot to walk the talk. Give them props for their intentions and willingness to engage questions about their goals, but wait and see what the results are.
  10. sambosteve is online now
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2008 12:48am

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     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pussies...hmmm

    It seemed to me that most posters here were at least willing to give the whole PMA MMA thing a grain a salt and time to see how it worked out.

    Now, a year later, we should look at it and see.

    In April, there was a PMA guy at the ISCF Amateur MMA worlds who did real well. I forget his name now.

    I am interested to know however, whether the Armory is still affiliated with PMA?

    The main PMA website now makes no mention of MMA: www.pmaschools.com
    The Armory no longer makes mention of premier on their website: www.thearmory.tv

    However, the Austin PMA branch does seem to be promoting Pelligrino as a PMA guy:
    www.pmaschools.com/austin1/index.cfm?page=6

    The NYC area PMA schools has some credible coaches and also promotes MMA and grappling. Their BJJ coach for example, Daniel Roupinol, is very legit. I have seem him compete several times...in advanced and pro division events: http://www.manhattantkd.cmasdirect.c...anJiuJitsu.pml

    On a side note, His bio does include a complete mis-statement in regards to his "win" at the battle of brooklyn...which I happened to referee and co-promote...LOL. He fought Mike Wacker to a draw in a 10 minute submission or draw match (with 2 min overtiem). He earned a draw, not a win. He did argue with me that he would have won in a tournament and seemed embarrassed to have lost to a brown belt...especially since he was expected to win by many. But, he did not win that match. I will write to them about this. I would have never seen this without this thread...LOL.

    But, in regards to PMA NY, most of the instructors on the staff page have no bios and little information:
    http://www.manhattantkd.cmasdirect.c...9356_Staff.pml

    So, as we figured before, I suspect it is like any other school. Check out the coaches before you join to see if they offer what you want.
    Last edited by sambosteve; 7/07/2008 11:26pm at .
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