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  1. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 12:33pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless
    PMA is bringing in real instructors to teach real mma curriculums and real self-defense.
    As long as the quality of instructors is on up there, that is all cool.

    Hermes Franca = Cool.
    Gabe "Godzilla" Ruediger's 2nd job in addition to Baskin Robbins = Not Cool.
  2. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 1:22pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless
    We're missing a small point here Phrost. The point I'm trying to make is that you can have an seperate program focus specifically on fitness and be up front with the individuals and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem with the whole taebo craze was that there was some saying they could defend themselves taking the work out alone, they have since dropped this testimony knowing it was rubbish. (btw I've taken those classes to condition for a pro fight, they're excellent for cardio).
    Here's what I don't want to see: A room full of assholes wearing Tapout gear, going around telling their buddies they train in "MMA" and thinking they're tough, while spending the bulk of their time doing the same crap that every other wussy little McDojo does instead of actually putting your ass on the line to deserve being called a "Martial Artist".

    Let's not make any mistake, there is a lot of money to be made off the new MMA craze. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long people aren't being sold substandard training, thinking it's the same thing as MMA.

    The defining feature of MMA is the fight itself. Remove fighting, remove its more polite cousin sparring, and you're not left with anything more than a product that resembles MMA.

    You can sit in a classroom and learn the rules of the road until you get 100% on the driver's test. But unless you get your ass out into traffic then you shouldn't consider yourself a driver.

    Again, I'm not commenting on this program. I don't know any more about it than I've skimmed from this thread. But...

    The concept of franchised MMA irks the crap out of me. The comment about "How does anybody do quality control" even more. How does anybody do quality control? You get your students out on the mat throwing hands at each other. Magically, one of two things generally happens:

    1. The quality people learn what works for them by success in using it, and what doesn't by getting hit in the face or tapped.

    2. The non-quality people run for the hills, to another program that will give them the image of being a Martial Artist without having to face the pain, risk, and effort that's required to do it properly.

    And that's how you do quality control, if you actually care about quality. Now, if you care more about money, hell yeah... the idea that anyone can be a "MMA guy" without having to deal with all that pesky "getting their ass kicked" stuff, is a pretty marketable, profitible product.

    That's what McDojo Karate, TKD, Kung Fu, etc have been selling for years.
  3. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 1:47pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Here's what I don't want to see: A room full of assholes wearing Tapout gear, going around telling their buddies they train in "MMA" and thinking they're tough, while spending the bulk of their time doing the same crap that every other wussy little McDojo does instead of actually putting your ass on the line to deserve being called a "Martial Artist".

    Let's not make any mistake, there is a lot of money to be made off the new MMA craze. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long people aren't being sold substandard training, thinking it's the same thing as MMA.

    The defining feature of MMA is the fight itself. Remove fighting, remove its more polite cousin sparring, and you're not left with anything more than a product that resembles MMA.

    You can sit in a classroom and learn the rules of the road until you get 100% on the driver's test. But unless you get your ass out into traffic then you shouldn't consider yourself a driver.

    Again, I'm not commenting on this program. I don't know any more about it than I've skimmed from this thread. But...

    The concept of franchised MMA irks the crap out of me. The comment about "How does anybody do quality control" even more. How does anybody do quality control? You get your students out on the mat throwing hands at each other. Magically, one of two things generally happens:

    1. The quality people learn what works for them by success in using it, and what doesn't by getting hit in the face or tapped.

    2. The non-quality people run for the hills, to another program that will give them the image of being a Martial Artist without having to face the pain, risk, and effort that's required to do it properly.

    And that's how you do quality control, if you actually care about quality. Now, if you care more about money, hell yeah... the idea that anyone can be a "MMA guy" without having to deal with all that pesky "getting their ass kicked" stuff, is a pretty marketable, profitible product.

    That's what McDojo Karate, TKD, Kung Fu, etc have been selling for years.
    Dude, even in my school there is no illusion about who is and isn't doing MMA for real. The Pit has a fight team and it has "Little Dragons". They also have a fitness kickboxing class. YOu going to go up to Hackleman and tell him it's crap? How about Chuck Liddell? See, it's not all black and white, you get this in all industries. The bullshit is when you got the ATA pushing 5 year old blackbelts out the door telling them that they got the badass skills.
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 1:58pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    where the hell is my popcorn?!
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. kwoww is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 2:14pm


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the issue stems from the fact that the difference "fighting" and "sparring" is hardly stressed. Fighting is competition, with full contact, where the goal is to win, invariably with a certain amount of violence. Sparring is mock fighting, with any level of contact, to either practice for fighting or to test your skills in a friendly, less testosterone-ridden manner. Most people don't realize this, and assume that sparring = fighting, which is what I assumed for a long time, and so even the idea of sparring conjures up unpleasant images of bloody GnPs and shirtless buff guys. If you can change this notion of contact in martial arts, you can change martial arts.
  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 2:17pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Here's what I don't want to see: A room full of assholes wearing Tapout gear, going around telling their buddies they train in "MMA" and thinking they're tough, while spending the bulk of their time doing the same crap that every other wussy little McDojo does instead of actually putting your ass on the line to deserve being called a "Martial Artist".

    Let's not make any mistake, there is a lot of money to be made off the new MMA craze. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long people aren't being sold substandard training, thinking it's the same thing as MMA.

    The defining feature of MMA is the fight itself. Remove fighting, remove its more polite cousin sparring, and you're not left with anything more than a product that resembles MMA.

    You can sit in a classroom and learn the rules of the road until you get 100% on the driver's test. But unless you get your ass out into traffic then you shouldn't consider yourself a driver.

    Again, I'm not commenting on this program. I don't know any more about it than I've skimmed from this thread. But...

    The concept of franchised MMA irks the crap out of me. The comment about "How does anybody do quality control" even more. How does anybody do quality control? You get your students out on the mat throwing hands at each other. Magically, one of two things generally happens:

    1. The quality people learn what works for them by success in using it, and what doesn't by getting hit in the face or tapped.

    2. The non-quality people run for the hills, to another program that will give them the image of being a Martial Artist without having to face the pain, risk, and effort that's required to do it properly.

    And that's how you do quality control, if you actually care about quality. Now, if you care more about money, hell yeah... the idea that anyone can be a "MMA guy" without having to deal with all that pesky "getting their ass kicked" stuff, is a pretty marketable, profitible product.

    That's what McDojo Karate, TKD, Kung Fu, etc have been selling for years.

    These issues are timeless. And they go to the heart of why some things don't translate commercially. I would argue that when you teach commercially you have to appeal to the assholes who want to be part of the fringe... the guys who want to wear the right unforms etc.

    In over 30 years of training I have never met a really good teacher who was able to teach commercially and exerscize quality control. I doubt I ever will. Teaching somoene how to fight in some ways is as intimate an experience as teaching somoene how to ****... I am only being half facitious.

    And it is not just martial arts! Yoga has now been commercialized and sterilized... turned into another fitness activity for good abs. I think one can respect the comercial enterprise but can make a distinction. And yeah there might be guys who manage to teach well commercially, but I am sure they toe the line and god bless them for finding a way because I sure as hell have not.
  7. smillard is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 2:23pm


     Style: BJJ/boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From the OP by Omega I don't see where there is anything wrong with the school. As long as the school makes it perfectly clear that not sparring will be a detriment to their ability to fight it's alright. Sparring isn't required at our school but is very much encouraged. It is explained as our instructor puts it there are predators and there are prey. Predators spar and prey don't, I think that makes the point pretty clear.

    Some people start out with no desire to spar and change their mind. Some of the women like my wife and her sister had no desire to spar but after six months of training they are both starting to have second thoughts just from the "I wonder how I'd do?" factor. I agree with El Macho's statement that teaching people the proper way to hit bags and focus mits is of more benefit than most know.

    As for the people at a school not sparring but walking around in their "Tapout" shorts claiming to be "MMA fighters", I feel that will be sorted out by the peer pressure from sparring members of the school. Who here that spars/fights honestly would accept that kind of crap in their school?

    As long as the training is good and the instructors are honest about the limitations and abilities I don't see a problem. Some posters here have shown a real elitist attitude that is probably why the guy (and some others) have had an "interesting view" of the website.

    As far as wearing the gi out of school, I think it looks stupid but sometimes when I go to the gym after class I'll leave the pants/shorts on and change t-shirts because I don't want to dirty another pair shorts. If someone has a problem with it, I don't really care I'm too busy working out.
  8. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 2:37pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless
    Dude, even in my school there is no illusion about who is and isn't doing MMA for real. The Pit has a fight team and it has "Little Dragons". They also have a fitness kickboxing class. YOu going to go up to Hackleman and tell him it's crap? How about Chuck Liddell? See, it's not all black and white, you get this in all industries. The bullshit is when you got the ATA pushing 5 year old blackbelts out the door telling them that they got the badass skills.
    I'm not passing judgements on anyone at all here; I'm talking about this on a conceptual level, not a functional one.

    Crawford has had a similar program for years. Until recently the programs were divided into "Fighter" and "Traditional" programs.

    Like I've said a few times here, I don't really know anything about PMA one way or another. Is this a case of having a program sold to existing TMA schools so they can add a MMA program?
  9. Poo-Jitsu is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 3:48pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    How does anybody do quality control? You get your students out on the mat throwing hands at each other. Magically, one of two things generally happens:

    1. The quality people learn what works for them by success in using it, and what doesn't by getting hit in the face or tapped.

    2. The non-quality people run for the hills, to another program that will give them the image of being a Martial Artist without having to face the pain, risk, and effort that's required to do it properly.

    And that's how you do quality control, if you actually care about quality. Now, if you care more about money, hell yeah... the idea that anyone can be a "MMA guy" without having to deal with all that pesky "getting their ass kicked" stuff, is a pretty marketable, profitible product.

    That's what McDojo Karate, TKD, Kung Fu, etc have been selling for years.
    i never understood why you couldn't have both money, and integrity. why not have a "competition" level class where intensity and contact are high, and a "fitness / fun" level class for the people who like to pretend (those people who can put some serious dough in your pocket). as long as you never claim to the fitness people that they are learning to be badass maulers, your conscience stays clean and your bank account stays full.

    any time a fitness guy gets a big head, put him in with the big boys.
  10. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 4:43pm

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Craphonso
    i never understood why you couldn't have both money, and integrity. why not have a "competition" level class where intensity and contact are high, and a "fitness / fun" level class for the people who like to pretend (those people who can put some serious dough in your pocket). as long as you never claim to the fitness people that they are learning to be badass maulers, your conscience stays clean and your bank account stays full.

    any time a fitness guy gets a big head, put him in with the big boys.
    I think that is the issue though, will these teachers/instructors actually do that. The fantasy that you don't have to put in the same amount of work to have the same amount of success is the reason why a lot of people flock to TMA schools. They are being sold the idea that they are badass without having to put in the work to actually be "badass". The problem becomes a fact of perception. You go to a school and you do the similar training as the "competition" class yet the instructor has never made a point to mention that you are in fact NOT getting the same level of training and preparation as the students in that class. Hell, the instructor might just lead the students into believing that they are.

    It reminds me of the cardio kickboxing class that is in session just before BJJ starts at the school I attend. It's basically moms in it. The only guy in the class is the guy leading it. The technique is sloppy; downright horrid in fact. What I'm curious about, is if they think they are just getting a good workout or are they learning self defense. Has that been implied or do they know the difference between "a great workout" and "ability to fight"? Hmmm, I guess that's the big question.
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