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  1. kwoww is offline
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    poser

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    Posted On:
    5/16/2007 8:57am


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickeroon1987
    I would, too, be wary of schools where the students walk around outside of the dojo with their uniforms on.
    How so? There's a pizza place about a 3 minute walk away from my dojang... would it really make that huge of a difference if I changed before walking down the road to get some dinner between assisting and taking class? I don't even like walking around in my uniform, but sometimes it's just way more convenient.

    I don't see how this makes my school any better or worse.
  2. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    5/16/2007 11:23am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by armory
    As I mentioned in a previous posting, not everyone wants to "spar" who does mma, they may want to get some exercise, learn something that could potentially be practical in a self defense situation and generally cross train in something new and fun.

    Joe
    What I placed in bold are the only things I really see wrong. I agree with the rest but these are the bullet points that have me worried. I'm basing this on my martial arts training and research. It's also based on something I came across in the military. Before Army Combatives, I was taught the normal way. Taught a crappy move, repeat it a bunch of times, taught some other crappy moves, repeat, your trained. That was it. The problem being that without the sparring, what I was taught really was useless to me because I had no clue how to apply it. Therefore, I actually didn't learn anything practical that would help me in a self defense situation because I had no clue how to apply it. Thought I did, turns out I didn't. The problem, would be balancing the understanding that sparring is in fact, an important necessity of self defense training and that you are missing a big piece of the pie by not doing it, with the fact that most people just don't want to do it.

    Just like in TMA were you have people who don't want to do the hard work that it takes to be a fighter but want to be thought of as one (just trying/paying for the black belt); I see a lot of people looking for a way to do MMA without DOING MMA. I see a future were people go "Watch out, I do MMA" because they hit some Thai pads, focus mits, and learn some armbar and shrimp escapes; just like those people who go "Watch out, I do Karate" after they watched "The Karate Kid" and took a few classes at the local Y.

    Balance will be key in making sure you don't have students diluting themselves as well as teachers who don't know better diluting the students into believing that they are just as prepared for a self defense encounter as the other students rolling and sparring. Again, it doesn't have to be "training for my UFC debut" level of sparring, but there has to be some resistance involved in the training.

    Remember, like a previous poster said, there is always problems when bringing something to the masses.

    One thing I am curious to see, however is retention. This is more of a general question not only to PMA and to you Joe but also to the school owners and students on this board. What happens if retention becomes an issue in this program. Would the temptation be there to "dumb" it down to increase retention. It's something a lot of school owners have had to confront so I'm curious what everyone's take is on that.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/16/2007 12:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    How so? There's a pizza place about a 3 minute walk away from my dojang... would it really make that huge of a difference if I changed before walking down the road to get some dinner between assisting and taking class? I don't even like walking around in my uniform, but sometimes it's just way more convenient.

    I don't see how this makes my school any better or worse.
    Depends dude. After training (when I train), I usually leave the gi pants on, but take the jacket off and put on a t-shirt (or a hoodie if its raining) and put on a pair of sandals (I'm too lazy most of the time to even take the pants and put on a pair of shorts.) Then I go off to the gym to lift, to do some grocery shopping or straight home. The sandals, gi pant and the Target t-shirt kinda makes me look like a hippie, but I prefer that as opposed to walking around with the full gi and belt on. :tard:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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  4. hungryjoe is online now
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/16/2007 8:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Joe's post from the armory makes me want to take my daughter to check out PMA to see for ourselves.

    On the gi in public note - I too also often leave wearing the pants.

    Once saw a grown man in the sporting goods section of a store - sporting a camoflage gi and wearing his black belt. Personally, I thought it looked arrogant, but then maybe it's just the way I was raised.
  5. Nickeroon1987 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/16/2007 8:55pm


     Style: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    How so? There's a pizza place about a 3 minute walk away from my dojang... would it really make that huge of a difference if I changed before walking down the road to get some dinner between assisting and taking class? I don't even like walking around in my uniform, but sometimes it's just way more convenient.

    I don't see how this makes my school any better or worse.
    Maybe not wearing the gi, but getting a pizza dinner regularly might.
  6. Lane is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 8:24am


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as I know, the PMA Waco used to (maybe still does) have Phil Cardella come in to teach BJJ. I'm not entirely too sure about the rest of it... some of the kids stuff seems a little cheesy (I particularly don't like how the kid is holding the katana in the photo on their website, but hey, it's kids stuff.

    I could go by and check out a class if you want to see what it's like.
    --
    L.
  7. TEA is offline
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    Now iz BBQ Timez?

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 8:41am

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane
    As far as I know, the PMA Waco used to (maybe still does) have Phil Cardella come in to teach BJJ. I'm not entirely too sure about the rest of it... some of the kids stuff seems a little cheesy (I particularly don't like how the kid is holding the katana in the photo on their website, but hey, it's kids stuff.

    I could go by and check out a class if you want to see what it's like.
    A first hand report would be cool. If Phil is teaching them BJJ, then at leat their grappling should be good.

    As for wearing your uniform outside of class, I was taught that that is a big no no - disrespectful of the school (I guess because non-MA people seeing someone walking around in an MA uniform think "what a dickhead" and that reflects badly on the school). Wearing the pants outside has usually been OK at most school that I've been to.

    My first instructor explained it as being in part a symbolic way to draw a distinction between what goes on outside the dojang and what goes on inside the dojang. When you put on your uniform, you are putting aside the events of the day outside the dojang that may distract you from your training (e.g. job, girlfriend, etc), and when you take it off, you are leaving behind anything in training that might negatively effect your performance outside of the dojang (e.g. frustration over getting pwned in sparring, being pumped over some new technique you just learned and wanting to try it out on your little brother, etc.). Yeah, it might sound cheezy, but rituals can serve a function in terms of socialization and how we interact with others or even perceive our environment. When I see kids in their uniforms with their belts tied running around Walmart, I usually get a bad impression about their instructor and school. I tend to think that either the school doesn't take what it teaches seriously or is arrogant and thinks that allowing its students to wander around in uniform is some sort of advertizing (invariably, the schools logo is emblazoned in large silk screening on the back of the gi/dobak top).

    And before all the non-TMA guys jump in and say "what a crock of ****," what would you think if you saw some guy walking around the grocery store in boxing shorts and shoes and with hand wraps on?
    Last edited by TEA; 5/17/2007 9:03am at .
  8. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 9:58am

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't have to spar to learn Martial Arts.

    BUT

    You have to spar to be good at Martial Arts.

    And the problem of bullshido is almost always a result of the failure to make this distinction perfectly clear; whether it's:

    * because a school is intentionally blurring (or covering up) this fact to attract/retain students
    * because they sincerely (mistakenly) believe their students don't need to spar to prepare for a fight or self defense situation.
    * because they just have low standards for what they're teaching and put little importance on the end performance ability of their students.

    Here's an example:

    We have a "newbie" class for adults and older teens, where they just learn basic techniques and fundamentals. We also have a kid's class where they roll/spar with other kids of their age group, varying from "push out" sumo style basic grappling, all the way to submissions and san shou rules or full sub grappling.

    The other night, a teenage boy (around 15) came in early for the "noob" class and caught the end of the kid's class. He was given the chance to roll with one of the girls (14 or so). He'd apparently been going to the technique class for a few months.

    He got absolutely destroyed by the girl who'd been doing full speed live rolling. Several times. In rapid succession.

    Frankly, I haven't paid much attention to this so I'm not commenting on the individuals or particular issues involved here. But what needs to be said is this: if an organization is not mandating from the top down that the distinction between the merits of just learning techninques, and learning how to execute them against a fully resisting opponent be clearly explained to the students, it is not only wasting their time and taking their money, it is perpetuating the same garbage into the Martial Arts that we've been fighting for 5 years now.

    Regardless of the brand, the packaging, or the fighting ability of those individuals who are running it.
  9. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 10:18am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine
    What I placed in bold are the only things I really see wrong. I agree with the rest but these are the bullet points that have me worried. I'm basing this on my martial arts training and research. It's also based on something I came across in the military. Before Army Combatives, I was taught the normal way. Taught a crappy move, repeat it a bunch of times, taught some other crappy moves, repeat, your trained. That was it. The problem being that without the sparring, what I was taught really was useless to me because I had no clue how to apply it. Therefore, I actually didn't learn anything practical that would help me in a self defense situation because I had no clue how to apply it. Thought I did, turns out I didn't. The problem, would be balancing the understanding that sparring is in fact, an important necessity of self defense training and that you are missing a big piece of the pie by not doing it, with the fact that most people just don't want to do it.

    Just like in TMA were you have people who don't want to do the hard work that it takes to be a fighter but want to be thought of as one (just trying/paying for the black belt); I see a lot of people looking for a way to do MMA without DOING MMA. I see a future were people go "Watch out, I do MMA" because they hit some Thai pads, focus mits, and learn some armbar and shrimp escapes; just like those people who go "Watch out, I do Karate" after they watched "The Karate Kid" and took a few classes at the local Y.

    Balance will be key in making sure you don't have students diluting themselves as well as teachers who don't know better diluting the students into believing that they are just as prepared for a self defense encounter as the other students rolling and sparring. Again, it doesn't have to be "training for my UFC debut" level of sparring, but there has to be some resistance involved in the training.

    Remember, like a previous poster said, there is always problems when bringing something to the masses.

    One thing I am curious to see, however is retention. This is more of a general question not only to PMA and to you Joe but also to the school owners and students on this board. What happens if retention becomes an issue in this program. Would the temptation be there to "dumb" it down to increase retention. It's something a lot of school owners have had to confront so I'm curious what everyone's take is on that.
    Nice post.

    What I really like is how you generalize the idea of resistance across the board, the entire spectrum of arts. If people just understood that the way one trains is the key, not the art, knowledge would be key, not any particular chauvanism or agenda.

    Retention of technique and a lot of other survival mechanisms like changing the technique in a pinch all come with feeling comfortable training under the right conditions.
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2007 11:33am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    You don't have to spar to learn Martial Arts.

    BUT

    You have to spar to be good at Martial Arts.

    And the problem of bullshido is almost always a result of the failure to make this distinction perfectly clear; whether it's:

    * because a school is intentionally blurring (or covering up) this fact to attract/retain students
    * because they sincerely (mistakenly) believe their students don't need to spar to prepare for a fight or self defense situation.
    * because they just have low standards for what they're teaching and put little importance on the end performance ability of their students.

    Here's an example:

    We have a "newbie" class for adults and older teens, where they just learn basic techniques and fundamentals. We also have a kid's class where they roll/spar with other kids of their age group, varying from "push out" sumo style basic grappling, all the way to submissions and san shou rules or full sub grappling.

    The other night, a teenage boy (around 15) came in early for the "noob" class and caught the end of the kid's class. He was given the chance to roll with one of the girls (14 or so). He'd apparently been going to the technique class for a few months.

    He got absolutely destroyed by the girl who'd been doing full speed live rolling. Several times. In rapid succession.

    Frankly, I haven't paid much attention to this so I'm not commenting on the individuals or particular issues involved here. But what needs to be said is this: if an organization is not mandating from the top down that the distinction between the merits of just learning techninques, and learning how to execute them against a fully resisting opponent be clearly explained to the students, it is not only wasting their time and taking their money, it is perpetuating the same garbage into the Martial Arts that we've been fighting for 5 years now.

    Regardless of the brand, the packaging, or the fighting ability of those individuals who are running it.

    We're missing a small point here Phrost. The point I'm trying to make is that you can have an seperate program focus specifically on fitness and be up front with the individuals and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem with the whole taebo craze was that there was some saying they could defend themselves taking the work out alone, they have since dropped this testimony knowing it was rubbish. (btw I've taken those classes to condition for a pro fight, they're excellent for cardio)

    If you want to defend yourself you're going to have to go live and against resistance. On this board that has already been established. PMA actually acknowledges this but there is a group that doesn't want to go live, they don't really care about the self-defense, they're only interested in getting in shape. As I said before there are many activities that allow you to do this without having to go to the next level. Nobody's trying to fool anybody in thinking otherwise.

    PMA is bringing in real instructors to teach real mma curriculums and real self-defense. You may not like every little part of the program but overall, from what I've seen, it looks pretty solid to me. Nothing personal guys but if you've never been a school owner or full time instructor you'd hardly understand it, it's like a non parent trying to tell a parent how to raise their kids. It looses it's flavor.
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