San Shou/Sanda

**Cullion** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 6:00am

Originally Posted by Virus

Maybe some video examples of these bad takedowns is in order?

http://www.oxfordwudang.com/lotus_sweep.0.html

It's not all freestyle wrestling based. Some people now train in San Da/San Shou as a style, and many people train in a CMA and then test it in San Shou.

**Virus** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 6:16am

If you look at this list you can see that pure kung fu is in a very small minority amongst sanda fighters. http://www.sanshou.com/ (click on the "fighters" tab)

But that's an aside. I'm interested in what takedowns cracky was thinking of when he said sanda's takedowns suck.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 7:25am

Originally Posted by Virus

If you look at this list you can see that pure kung fu is in a very small minority amongst sanda fighters. http://www.sanshou.com/ (click on the "fighters" tab)

That's a small list from a single org, but it's a healthy thing when CMA people compete against non-CMA people. The main amateur org in the UK is apparently now making people prove they do a CMA to compete in their competitions IIRC, and that's not a healthy thing. The issue isn't whether or not people who don't do CMA want to compete in San Shou (that's a good thing), but whether or not the people who do come from CMA backgrounds do well, and they do.

But that's an aside. I'm interested in what takedowns cracky was thinking of when he said sanda's takedowns suck.

Cracky was trolling.

**liokault** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 7:28am

Originally Posted by Cullion

In san shou you want to keep it standing, but takedowns are allowed. You don't want to go down with them (and if you do you want to land on top) and you don't want certainly don't want to get taken down and end up on the bottom.

Think no-gi tachiwaza with full contact striking.

Well, sacrafice throws are starting to dominate 'official' san shou in the UK now.

(BTW empty your PM inbox)

**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 6/04/2007 11:15pm

Originally Posted by Soju - Joe

I really like that video

However there's nothing in San Shou I see that isn't in MMA comps also. and as far as ignoring the ground the argument could be made that if you are on the receiving end of a good slam and the opponent comes in to finish you off, which will happen in both 1 on 1 and multiple opponent fights then you need the ground work component in both cases.

My understanding is, in San Shou your throws are awarded points based on how clean, and how damaging the throws would be in the street. I don't think you can spike people on their head in the throws, but they hurt. You have, I think, 3 seconds in the clinch to do something, or it's broken up. Cung Le is nearly impossible to take down, and a simple one or two leg pick will score, so it's not as though no one's trying to do it the mma way. When Cung Le did mma, he just pounded the guy. Many of the san shou throws, ideally leave the fighter in a position to strike or throw again (not the fancy leg-scissor takedown stuff) maintaining good punching/kicking angles after every exchange.

The mma fighter's I've sparred kept their elbows too far apart, and hands too far from their head...it wasn't hard to land stamp kicks, sidekicks, stiff jabs without being thrown or hit with the counter punch.
They weren't pro fighters but I'm no Cung Le (a photo of Cung Le could kick my ass).

**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 6/04/2007 11:29pm

Originally Posted by UpaLumpa

Rules keeping it standing doesn't mean yuo can technically keep it standing. Also, standing up after a takedown in sanshou doesn't mean you can GET UP. Something Chuck absolutely can do.

In other words, and always MMA>SanShou.

mma, is not the be all and end all of fighting, even sport fighting. I look forward to Cung Le beating the living daylights out of mma guys who want to take him down. the big gloves san shou guys wear, mask the power of the form. Everything is from the hips, but with the elbows tight in the ready stance to protect the center line. To take down a talented san shou fighter, you have to play into his strengths, clinch fighting. The cardio required for San Shou is obscene, it's like every guy you fight is trying to be Rampage Jackson, having trained with the slams, and to survive, you have to be able to get up, and brawl again, no rolling around, no breathers in the guard. I have respect for all combat sports, but san shou seems to be the most demanding.

**bobyclumsyninja** · Posted On: 6/04/2007 11:41pm

Originally Posted by liokault

Well, sacrafice throws are starting to dominate 'official' san shou in the UK now.

(BTW empty your PM inbox)

Those are for show,and easy points (easy if you can do them at all, I know I can't, but one of my fellow students uses leg scissors take downs in san da competition to great effect).
Throws like falling backward, propelling your opponent over your shoulder as you twist and dump them on their own shoulder at a steep angle, could be called a sacrafice throw, but really is one of the most painfull to the other fighter. They can be fight enders. In the street, there is no coming back from crushing your shoulder on the concrete with your own weight falling from a standing position, with your opponent landing on you as a bonus. One of my fellow students, Sonja, ended one of her last san shou fights with that one.

Like any sport, people will play to the rules (like with throws that would be unrealistic in the street/bar) but that doesn't mean the throws are inferior, the choices made by the fighters reflect the requirements for victory within the sport. I've never been schooled like when I've sparred San Shou guys, they catch kicks like it's nothing, and stamina? I never felt so weak.

**Lebell** · Posted On: 6/10/2007 7:55am

enough nutriding.

mma and sanshou are just different,some rules in sanshou:in clinch you have 3 secs to throw/sweep,otherwise the ref breaks it up.
After you have been thrown,you get up and start from the position you have been thrown.
If you throw none of your knees are allowed to touch the ground.
You are allowed to overtake a throw and it can be rewarded with points if you end up on the top,eventhough most times knees touch the ground.
you are allowed to throw your opponent out of the ring or off the lei tai.

most interesting rule in SOME federations:no series to the head..maximal 2 punches,then something to the body or legs.
This is to keep it technically challenging.
It can be very frustrating for a fighter.

How i understand Sanshou it's not about the streetz so much,its about different kungfu styles using sanshou matches to compete,utilising their trademark skills/techniques.
Because it's about style vs style they want to keep it as technical as possible.