Prices & Practices: Bullshido? McDojo?

**FickleFingerOfFate** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 9:22am

Sorry,

Couldn't resist the draw of the concensus.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 9:50am

Originally Posted by Hidama

BTW- 5 people is hardly a community.

Actually it is in this case notice, there were 376 views of this thread. That means people thought your questions were answered or worthless.

So, yes the community has spoken.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 9:59am

Oh and just so you know read the sticky.

By putting this thread in MABS you implied this school could be Bullshido.
The very act of hiding the name of the school and the instructor furthered the possibility.
Listing the BBC and MC club prices garnered more attention.
Adding the shock and awe at the prices continued the slide into Bullshido.
Comparing the prices to a TKD school after being told it was common (minus the clubs) didn't help.

Now, hopefully after reading the sticky, do you understand why you were questioned?

**Hidama** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 10:41am

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Oh and just so you know read the sticky.

By putting this thread in MABS you implied this school could be Bullshido.
The very act of hiding the name of the school and the instructor furthered the possibility.
Listing the BBC and MC club prices garnered more attention.
Adding the shock and awe at the prices continued the slide into Bullshido.
Comparing the prices to a TKD school after being told it was common (minus the clubs) didn't help.

Now, hopefully after reading the sticky, do you understand why you were questioned?

Actually read the sticky first before I posted. I didn't see where it said anything about implying Bullshido about a school by posting a question about it. I didn't name the school though that seemed to be a push for people to jump on something. And as I said again and again and tried to clarify, I wasn't asking about the school, I was asking about the tiered programs and if this was a frequent practice among BJJ/MT (MMA) schools.

When I checked the name of this forum it was called "Martial Arts BS, Fraud, Investigations, and Standards" . I questioning standards i.e., the practice of BBC, MC, etc, and if the rates for them were common. I thought this was the thread for serious discussion,not YMAS.

I think you are just as thick as you are accusing me of being. Obviously I/we are having a communication problem here. It didn't seem that fucking complicated to me, but what do I know?

**Hidama** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 10:52am

BTW- I hid the name of the school because I didn't want it to be about this particular school.

My "shock and awe" were not "OMG that's a rip-off" but "OMG someone actually charges that and people gladly pay for it". I come from an area where typical prices are in the $60-$80 price range and BBC, etc., is considered a Kiddie program.

The problem with this thread in my eyes is not so much how I worded the questioning but rather too many wannabe "Sharks" in the water hoping for a whiff of blood.

So, whatever. Unsubscribe from the thread and drop it, already.

**Hidama** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 10:57am

Finally if this is not the right forum for this questioning then the mods should move it to the right one, please and be done with it.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 1:38pm

Originally Posted by Hidama

The problem with this thread in my eyes is not so much how I worded the questioning but rather too many wannabe "Sharks" in the water hoping for a whiff of blood.

YOU didn't like the answers given so you pretended they weren't given and asked the questions again.

YOU didn't want to give the information out which would help answer your questions more fully.

YOU keep insisting your premise regarding some general consensus of what BBCs are, contradicting what others are trying to tell you.

YOU just want to argue.

The problem with this thread is YOU.

**chingythingy** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 2:39pm

Hidama,

I don't know, man. The problem is that when many schools start growing larger and having multi-arts and different instructors, more mat space, rings/cages, and competition teams you are dealing with a larger-scale animal.

There also are a lot of "how to run a MA business" courses out there that many times gym investors read up on and implement, and a lot of your "black belt club" and "masters club" types of contracts stem from that and from business practices focusing on things like lifetime worth of a customer.

Some top-notch gyms may enact practices that can drift more towards "McDojo-ish". That doesn't make them bad or illegitimate.

Hope that contributes to answers to questions.

**Jhemsley** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 3:35pm

Let me a give a completely manufactured example to try to help get this back on track.

If the "Master's Program" is the same as the unlimited training deal, and you also get 4 hours of month of private instruction with the head instructor, who might charge $100 an hour for a non-member private - then $349 a month for unlimited training and 4 hours of one on one isn't a bad deal IF you use all 4 hours a month. The practice wouldn't be unethical, McDojo, Bullshido or whatever perjorative term you might give it. In fact, you're getting a heck of a bargain.

But if the "Masters Program" for $349 a month means you get an extra patch, techniques that ought to be part of the standard curriculum and an occasional $50 seminar "complementary," well, its a crappy deal. I don't care what you call it (see above), I'm just not kicking out the cash for it.

So the question remains, what do you get with the "Masters Program"? Once again, asking "are black belt clubs bad practice or frowned upon in BJJ and Muay Thai" doesn't help, unles you define what the real program is. Because there is no standard definition of "Masters Program" no on can get on the same page with you.

We aren't talking about bushels of wheat or term life insurance here, which can be easily compared to other bushels of wheat of life insurance policies. There can be so many possiblities of what a Masters Program or Black Belt Club might be, no one can definitively answer your question until you clarify the terms, because no one wants to inadvertently bad mouth a program they don't know enough about .

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/11/2007 3:41pm

Originally Posted by Jhemsley

Let me a give a completely manufactured example to try to help get this back on track.

If the "Master's Program" is the same as the unlimited training deal, and you also get 4 hours of month of private instruction with the head instructor, who might charge $100 an hour for a non-member private - then $349 a month for unlimited training and 4 hours of one on one isn't a bad deal IF you use all 4 hours a month. The practice wouldn't be unethical, McDojo, Bullshido or whatever perjorative term you might give it. In fact, you're getting a heck of a bargain.

But if the "Masters Program" for $349 a month means you get an extra patch, techniques that ought to be part of the standard curriculum and an occasional $50 seminar "complementary," well, its a crappy deal. I don't care what you call it (see above), I'm just not kicking out the cash for it.

So the question remains, what do you get with the "Masters Program"? Once again, asking "are black belt clubs bad practice or frowned upon in BJJ and Muay Thai" doesn't help, unles you define what the real program is. Because there is no standard definition of "Masters Program" no on can get on the same page with you.

We aren't talking about bushels of wheat or term life insurance here, which can be easily compared to other bushels of wheat of life insurance policies. There can be so many possiblities of what a Masters Program or Black Belt Club might be, no one can definitively answer your question until you clarify the terms, because no one wants to inadvertently bad mouth a program they don't know enough about .

This is what he doesn't want to answer. This has been asked on multiple occasions. If you can say a school can whip 99% of the bullshido posters, some possible negative comments shouldn't worry you.