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  1. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 12:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidama
    I answered all your questions to the best of my knowledge.

    I'm curious what aspersions you think I'm casting. I've already said I don't have an issue with this school. I haven't named them. I simply am asking what the general opinion on this sort of thing is. If you call your black belt club the elite team or other name, it is still a black belt club.

    A student is not allowed to spar at this club until they reach blue belt and for that you need to join the next tier. Now this may have changed but was the case as recently as 2005 and was said by the head instructor.

    Your reply reads like a dismissal because you think you smell a troll. Not the case here. I started this thread because I have a legitimate question.

    I don't mean to imply troll.


    I simply think that more information is needed to make an informed opinion.


    If someone else is willing to call Bullshido/ McDojo based on the info provided,

    that's their business.


    I tend to hold with innocent until proven guilty.

    I don't feel you've met those requirements, and as the person posing the question,

    it's your responsibility to supply data,

    not our responsibility to do it for you.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

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  2. Hidama is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 12:45pm


     Style: Tenchu Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll try to make this clear. I have much respect for the owner and head instructor of this school. Hell If I was grossing a million a year teaching martial arts, I probably wouldn't be wasting time right now. This guy and his top students would destroy 99% of people posting here. That is beside the point.

    My question is: Black belt clubs and MAsters clubs generally as perceived as Bullshido, right?
    However, if a person that is practicing an art such as BJJ or Muay Thai, as long as they are getting extra bang for the buck, does this justify the practice or is it still considered bullshido?

    What if another art without the current prestige / fad value of BJJ/MuayThai but could produce quality martial artists emulated this? Let's say Judo for example. What if there were a Judo school that had a blackbelt club, master's club, etc. and was charging $350 a month? Where would the line be?

    Are Martial Arts lessons similar to real estate in that they are worth what someone is willing to pay for them? People will pay more for exclusivity. If a martial art has percieved exclusivity is one justified in charging more than the Judo club across town?
  3. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 12:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    < taps out >


    < submitted by circular rhetoric >
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  4. Hidama is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 1:02pm


     Style: Tenchu Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    < taps out >


    < submitted by circular rhetoric >
    lol

    Sorry, man didn't mean to do that to you

    Still looking for reasoned opinion on the matter, however.
  5. kohadril is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 1:32pm


     Style: BJJ, Debate-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidama
    My question is: Black belt clubs and MAsters clubs generally as perceived as Bullshido, right?
    To my mind (and I may be wrong) "mcdojo" and "bullshido" are unrelated terms. Bullshido is falsity, fraud, cult-like practices, pseudo-science, superstition, and unsupported claims of effectiveness by martial artists or martial arts schools. Mcdojoism is franchise-modeled, mainstream marketed schools more geared toward taking people's money than to teaching them martial arts. While Mcdojos often deal in Bullshido, they do not necessarily have to. Clearly, this particular school is not bullshido. It may or may not be a mcdojo.
  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 2:14pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Value

    I have much respect for the owner and head instructor of this school . .. . This guy and his top students would destroy 99% of people posting here. That is beside the point.
    Actually, its not besides the point at all. The root of you're question concerns value. Without getting in over my head in my knowledge of economics, value is connected to price, quantity and quality. In large part the quality in question here is that of the instructor's quality of instruction, best measured by his capabilities and that of his students.

    If you ask people to answer a question about value, but refuse to acknowledge the role of quality in determining value - no one can help you, here or anywhere else. You might as well ask how much a lump of pure gold is worth without telling anyone how much it weighs or how pure it is, then wonder why no one will give you a definitive answer.

    This is why FickleFingerofFate tapped out. You wanted to know his opinion whether or not a specific tiered pricing system was a good value, but refused to tell him what goods or services you got for the various prices, and what the quality of those goods and services were. When he asked for more information (which was reasonable), you began asking more general ones questions as proxies for you're specific ones, but really were asking the same question, just with even fewer details and expected a better answer. I don't think you did it intentionally, are a troll, or are at all foolish.

    I think you basically want a metric for determining whether or not this gym is ripping people off or offering a good value without sounding like you are throwing around accusations. The best way to do that is be very specific about what is offered (which you have not done), while being completely secretive about who is offering it (which to you're credit you have done).


    Are Martial Arts lessons similar to real estate in that they are worth what someone is willing to pay for them?
    Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it - no more no less. Not trying to be smarmy here, but that's how it works.

    What I think you're really after is an collective opinion on whether THIS martial arts school is worth the price. TO give you an opinion on that, you have to be more forthcoming about the situation, or else no is going to be able to give an informed opinion about the matter. They might answer the questions you've asked, but without a better context, its really not going to be a fair representation of what they'd think in the very real situation you started with, as a result the answers aren't going to be terribly useful to you.

    If a martial art has percieved exclusivity is one justified in charging more than the Judo club across town?
    I think someone's always justified to charge what the market is willing to bear, provided there is no fraud involved in the presentation of the product or service. If there is no fraud, and someone is willing to pay $100 for something someone else is willing to pay $1000 for, who would you sell it to and for what price?
  7. Ronin.74 is offline

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 2:58pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Would you please at least post what city the school is in? From the program your describing in sounds very similar to a school in my area. If I'm right I would be able to provide you with a very inexpensive alternative.
  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 4:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin.74
    Would you please at least post what city the school is in? From the program your describing in sounds very similar to a school in my area. If I'm right I would be able to provide you with a very inexpensive alternative.
    Ha!!! I though I was the only one. That school and it's black belt programs sounds quite similar (too similar) to another school I know here in South Florida - the instruction in that school is obscenely good, but the pricing is just too much compared to other, high quality schools (which gives it more of a MA country club air to it.)

    So this is my take on the OP's questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidama
    There is always a lot of talk here about cost for training. Ok to begin with , I am not on a crusade against this school or anything, so I won't mention the name but I do have a serious question?

    What do you think of a school teaching BJJ that has rates of $99 = 2 classes week.

    $119 = 3 x week ; $149 = unlimited.
    A little bit over the top for just BJJ, but who knows. The instructor may be a grand master or something. I particularly like the breakdown of 2-3 times a week and unlimited. $119 for 3 times a week falls right around the average paid by most BJJ'es who may pay for full access and yet only train 3 times a week.

    If you have the time and stamina to train more than 3 times a week, then this school is a bit overpriced. Otherwise, it sounds ok to me.

    Do they go month to month or with short-term contracts (3 months)? Anything longer than 3 months... **** it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidama
    They also teach Thai boxing but that is an additional fee, similar rates.
    Wait, define "additional fee". If additional fee means $25, that's still not over the top.

    Most people pay no more than $180 for full access to BJJ, MMA and Muay Thai. ATT charges a meager $130-something for full access to everything (classes, bags, gym) 6 days a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidama
    Now once you join the school you are guided toward joining the equivalent of Black belt club at $249 per month and then the equivalent of Masters club at $349 per month. I have also heard from the owners own mouth that he is considering starting an Ultimate Masters Club.

    These are legitimate prices from the head instructors mouth.
    McDojo. Stay away from that ****. What exactly do these black belt clubs have to offer beyond paying for full access??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidama
    So would you say Bullshido? McDojo? Depends? Who cares?
    Bullshido? Hell no.

    McDojo? The black belt clubs, 99.999999% yes.

    Depends? Yep, depends on what the bb clubs offer, and depends on how much extra you have to pay for MT, and most importantly, it depends on whether you can make use of any extra features you get for your money.

    See, there may be a school right in front of my house charging $500 for unlimited training, with a 8th degree BB available for almost 1-on-1 instruction 10AM to 7PM 5 days a week.

    And then, there is another school, 10 miles away, with a 2nd degree BB who charges $150 for 5 classes a week, 1 hour each (out of which I can only attend 2 or 3 a week if I'm lucky).

    Which one should I choose? Which one would you choose?
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 5/10/2007 4:09pm at .
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  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 4:23pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I still need to understand 2 things.

    Are you thinking of training at this school?
    Why won't you give specifics?

    See, I can't pass the Mcdojo judgment equivocally because, I need to know what is included with each package.
  10. Hidama is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 7:20pm


     Style: Tenchu Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK - I am NOT asking for specifics on this particular school. I know that the people who train there feel they are well worth it. I will admit I was taken aback when I found out how much they were actually charging. I've never heard of anyone other than a certain TKD school in the Denver area that was asking this amount of money. I honestly don't know everything they are offering for those prices. What sorts of things would make it worth it to you?

    I am more asking for the principle of the thing. I'm not sure how I can lay this out any better than I have.

    This school is definitely not Bullshido as I've explained earlier. I wanted to know if that was a common practice and what the general consensus on this was.

    I'm not going to name the school or the owner, but to answer Ronin, the school is in the metro Washington area. If you know anything about the area you should guess immediately. I know there are quite a few people on this site that train there.

    I just do not want anyone to think I am accusing this school of anything underhanded, because as I have said and will repeat, I have the utmost respect for this person and his accomplishments and do not want my questions to be misconstrued.
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