Chinese Submission Wrestling?

**Hands** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 1:49am

Originally Posted by EmetShamash

. . . many things can be done with the legs to lock up an opponent.

Are saying that you can use the legs to lock up the opponent while you're on the ground or are you saying that many chin-na techniques can't be used on the ground because chin-na techniques rely on the legs?

**Virus** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 1:51am

**Hands** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 2:30am

Originally Posted by Virus

*pukes* I've looked through that book before and didn't really care for it.

**Virus** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 8:07am

You don't care for it!!!! but that's an ude garami (with added fingerlock deadly) it's a proven technique!!!!

**Sophist** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 10:03am

Originally Posted by Hands

Are saying that you can use the legs to lock up the opponent while you're on the ground or are you saying that many chin-na techniques can't be used on the ground because chin-na techniques rely on the legs?

The majority of the higher-percentage ground techniques use the legs to control the opponent. Juji-gatame, the standard armbar, uses the legs; the triangle choke uses the legs; the omoplata uses the legs. The americana and kimura (both a.k.a. judo ude-garami) do not use the legs, but rely on positional configurations effectively impossible to achieve in stand-up.

Very few locks work at all against resistance in stand-up. Of those that do, ude-gatame is probably the highest percentage groundfighting lock, and it's not one of the more common submissions.

Stand-up techniques translate hideously badly to the ground. Of course, having some notion of the mechanics of locks may provide some help in groundfighting against someone with no idea what they're doing, but since ground techniques are so different it doesn't give much of a head start.

**JBliss** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 10:45am

as far as i know CMA's and Shuai Chiao in particular have NO ground component. Being that if you hit the ground you lost/died cuz someone would be stabbing you shortly or some such. I also used to hear " Men fight standing up" alot. It's funny, guys in jail say the same thing.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 11:16am

Originally Posted by EmetShamash

There is chin-na out there that is not done standing up as well. The whole "what works standing up works on the ground" argument isn't really taking everything into account. When you are on the ground you are much closer to the opponent and without having to use your legs to support you many things can be done with the legs to lock up an opponent. I should add that I realize these things are not trained a whole lot in any schools that we hear about much.

You need to explain this because it sounds really bad. Yes, there are things that can be done to lock up the opponent. No, I've never seen viable (non-compliant) techniques demoed that weren't some type of bastardized antigrappling.

Most chinese ground work consists of strikes and techniques to get back up.

So, please, provide some examples.

No, Chinese wrestling doesn't count because, it was frowned upon for many years until recently.

**EmetShamash** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 4:55pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

You need to explain this because it sounds really bad. Yes, there are things that can be done to lock up the opponent. No, I've never seen viable (non-compliant) techniques demoed that weren't some type of bastardized antigrappling.

Most chinese ground work consists of strikes and techniques to get back up.

So, please, provide some examples.

No, Chinese wrestling doesn't count because, it was frowned upon for many years until recently.

I realize that most of cma ground work is dedicated to getting back up, but there are joint manipulations that are done on the ground with the legs that I have seen that are pretty good. The only thing that I can point to in proof is some old book I have called "The Secret Arts of Chinese Leg Manoeuvres In Pictures". But even in there they only show a few sweeps and locks that are done from the ground. They demonstrate a few sweeps with joint breaks using the legs.

I am not defending anyone's "anti-grapple" bullshit either.

From what I have heard, martial arts in general used to be looked down upon in China as a cheap labor skill or something. Similar to how we treat construction workers as dumb oafs instead of skilled tradesmen.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 4:59pm

Originally Posted by EmetShamash

I realize that most of cma ground work is dedicated to getting back up, but there are joint manipulations that are done on the ground with the legs that I have seen that are pretty good. The only thing that I can point to in proof is some old book I have called "The Secret Arts of Chinese Leg Manoeuvres In Pictures". But even in there they only show a few sweeps and locks that are done from the ground. They demonstrate a few sweeps with joint breaks using the legs..

Okay, what is your experience with these locks and what style?
I think I have that book, I'll have to dig it out. If it is the one I think it realy doesn't support your argument.

**EmetShamash** · Posted On: 6/09/2007 6:27pm

Don't think that I am any expert or anything, but from what I have seen there is a bit of groundfighting in cma... not much, not practiced enough in modern cma's, not nearly as extensive as BJJ, but the stuff is out there.

I do Mantis Kung Fu. I have had exposure to mostly Seven Star, Wah Lum, and Hung Gar. I wish I could say that I have more experience with using the stuff... but alas I am very lacking in the experience.