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  1. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 7:44am

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by colonelpong2
    Just chekin on my post count. Carry on


    Post-whore




    Isn't it time for you to start an "I'm going for my 1000th post haiku thread"?
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

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  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 10:28am

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    You're talking about conditioning though not skill-based drills. Picking up large tires and pushing them does utilise the explosive hip extension used in stuff like double-leg takedowns, so there is some specificity there. I don't really know what particular farm exercises he's talking about so I can;t analyse them. Yes, doing farmwork will make you strong and give endurance. Is is sports specific though? Most of it probably isn't. But most of all, picking up tires and wheelbarrows up a hill do involve explosive forward movement and are in a completely different league to stuff like chi-sau or horse stances, which don't significantly replicate any movement found in real fighting.

    You do have to be careful about separating conditioning from skills training. They are different things. Skills training has to be as specific as possible which was the main point I was trying to make, whereas strength still has to be specific but is hindered by the fact that you can't always apply large amounts of overload to every possible movement, especially complex ones found in stuff like MMA. You also have to use a full range of motion when strength training because repeatedly using a limited range of motion over time will shorten the muscle and lead to injury.

    The article was addressing skill-based drills which have to be specific. You can't get better at golf by playing darts. I realise that I used the example of low stances as strength training which would qualify as muscular conditioning but the modality of doing extended low stances could still be critised on the same basis because it does not apply much overload, and it conditions according to joint angle and movements that are not used in fighting. Pushing a barrel up a hill is way more specific for building for MMA than forms because it uses explosive forward movements like when clinching up, pummeling and going for take downs.

    You also have to remember that just because someone is using a certain modality, doesn't mean that it's the best one. When I was studying Athlete Support Services we went spent a few days at the Australian Institute of Sport. We watched the a rugby league team train and talked to the team managers. When we asked him about their conditioning program he said they flew in a guy from England to give them a bodybuilding program! That's utter ****. Rugby is not about bug muscles and being cut, it's about strength, power and speed and bodybuilding regimes are a poor choice for training that. Case in point, just because something is in use, doesn't mean it conforms to best practice.

    I see what you're saying now.

    As far as forms and kata go for practicel application my belief is that it's mostly useless. I think that (I should start a seperate thread for this statement) that a lot of stances in CMA JMA and so forth come from weapon training, and that they were practicle moves based on actual stances you would use in sword, spear, staff and so on and so forth. That once the context of a lot of that is taken out they become very dissassociated with practicle hand to hand combat in a modern setting.

    Also looking at some old school Karate and Kung Fu forms several of them were meant to be done as 2 man forms where you are smacking your shins, and forearms into each other and while not exactly how you fight the forms are therefore being used to condition the body to take certain punushment as well as improving muscle strengthand endurance which is needed in fighting.

    Again much of this is lost as it is rarely practiced that way.

    As far as practicality from a conditioning stand point. It depends on the Individual. Monson's flipping of a tractor tire excercise propably works best for him on developing explosive power by moving a heavy awkward object. I don't think you will get exact the same benefits from any weight lifting excercises.

    So while it may look retarded, for a fighter like Monson, with his build and skill set, it is an ideal conditioning excercise.

    What does this all mean to CMA / TMA forms and stances?

    There might be a context where they work and do what some say they do.

    My belief is that many do not use, practice or even know these contexts and are just spewing BS.

    But

    That doesn't mean everyone who says that or uses these methods is full of it or wrong.

    It goes back to Cullion's argument that some people judge everything that isn't MMA with too wide a brush.
    Last edited by Goju - Joe; 5/10/2007 10:31am at .
  3. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 10:48am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that tire flipping would be a decent conditioning exercise for anyone that needed to wrestle. I can't think of a reason why a certain exercise would yield positive physiological adaptations in one person, and not another unless they had some sort of disorder or injury. (or if they can't physically pick up the tire which might be what you meant, in which case you'd be right.)

    I remember seeing the tire-flip video and thinking that it was a pretty damn good drill for wrestling. He lowers his level and picks up the tire, like when grabbing the legs in a double leg, then he pushes the tire forward, using explosive pushing and hip extension like when driving forward in a takedown or clinch. The tire probably weighs more than a person so he's getting overload. Not all of us have access to a tractor tire though.

    I get what you're saying about the postures coming from amour and weapon systems, you could be right. I argue against what I see on the forums and nobody said anything about weapons when justifying those types of drills. People from styles like t3h _ing _un use these defenses of thier drills and to my knowledge the _un was never an armored style.

    Actually, now that you have said it soju, they'll probably all be saying that now.
    Last edited by Virus; 5/10/2007 10:56am at .
  4. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 11:00am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tire-flipping is a "strongman" exercise. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/tire_flipping.htm There are fairly obvious athletic cross-over benefits here.

    A more general article on strongman training: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/st...c_strength.htm

    "The competitive sport of Strongman requires limit-strength, speed-strength, anaerobic threshold, core stability, strength-endurance, dynamic flexibility, and grip strength as well as the ability to move quickly while bearing tremendous weights. It doesn't take an in-depth analysis to realize that many of these aspects are highly desired in sports, especially those of a combative nature."

    Strongman training rocks. And its kinda fun.
  5. saturnjunkie is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 11:01am


     Style: FMA & judo-ultra noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm hesitant to post a reply because I'm by no means an authority on this. So I just figured I'd give my 2 pesos; take it for what it's worth.

    First, I was taking FMA through a very talented FMA instructor (until he closed shop). His name was Duane Ranieri; he's listed as a master instructor under Ernesto presas and has trained with both Bobby Toboada and Remy presas (along with others) extensively.

    The guy is effing good. He may be the best "traditional" martial artist I'd ever seen. Probably had crap for a ground game, but at least he made no pretentions about it. His understanding of techniques was highly impressive; especially for someone with a kung fu background.

    He apparently at one point did some form of kung fu and then began learning tai chi and bagua. Now anyone else I'd say booooooo this guy doesn't know what he's doing. But he'd actually used maneuvers on me in sparring; for instance, one time he elbowed me in shin while checking a kick. It was so smooth I never even saw it coming.

    He said that was a tai chi move. I have no way to validate the authenticity of that, but take it as you will. That **** hurt to. He used the force of my kick and the point of his elbow to give me a golf-ball sized goonie for a few weeks.

    Duane could be a bit of an ass.

    Anyways since then I train about 1x a week with a buddy of mine; his name is 'li' Yen Chen. He took Arnis and ba gua w/ duane.

    We have very specific stylistic differences but show each other some things from time to time. We'll actually be sparring soon and I wouldn't mind getting it on video. Apparently the guy who trained duane in bagua was also a former boxer from korea (of all things). This is totally hearsay but I trust the speaker so whatever.


    Anyways; when I heard this I said .. so what do they train you with? What's the point of the circle stepping?

    I was given two answers:
    answer 1 - Because ba gua is an internal martial art, it seeks to build the 'internal' muscles. Duane had explained this as well. He stated specifically that 'internal' martial arts are not about internal mental power but rather using the core muscles extensively.

    answer 2 - Ba gua footwork is effective in a combat environment.

    The second answer is obviously difficult to validate until I spar Li. Now the advantage is in my court because honestly, he has barely ever sparred. However, doing some light-style exercises (i.e. just tooling around at low speed/power) I was impressed by how effective what he was doing was.

    For instance, I moved forward with a jab (left lead) and then executed a right hook to the head. He stepped off axis to my right, slipped the hook and palm heeled me to the chest.

    Now while the palm heel would have arguable power one thing that was undeniable was the affect it had on my balance. Would we have both had commited strikes I have no doubt he would have made me wobbly balance-wise.

    Anyways - bottom line. I'll revaluate after I spar Li, though I know for a fact when I've sparred duane I've gotten pwnt like a little bitch. I at least will give ba gua in particular the time of day compared to most CMA's.

    On an aside, virus, I agree with your argument. I just wanted to try to shed some light on the validity of the specific art used to illustrate your example.
    Thanks for the interesting post :)
  6. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 11:40am

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Virus, I'm mostly with you on this, which is why I no longer waste time training forms. But just to play devils advocate, here's two common boxing exercises which, though they work on condition are also supposed to help your skillset and yet have no direct applicability to fighting: skipping rope and hitting the speed bag.

    Skipping rope is supposed to help your footwork and help make you "light on your feet" in addition to conditioning, yet it looks nothing like fighting/boxing. Hitting the speed bag is supposed to create quickness and a sense of timing, yet the way you hit a speed bag is nothing at all like you hit in a fight or a boxing match.

    So, though you are mostly correct, you cannot dismiss all TMA training that does not look like fighting or directly apply to fighting. Which is fine. It's not an all or nothing proposition, anyway. Admitting that does not absolve anyone or any style of using crappy training methodology.
  7. Dirty Rooster is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 12:25pm


     Style: Basic Self-Defence

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnjunkie
    ...For instance, I moved forward with a jab (left lead) and then executed a right hook to the head. He stepped off axis to my right, slipped the hook and palm heeled me to the chest.
    That's interesting Junkie.
    Can you ask him to show you a sequence in his bagua walking forms in which that left-step and right palm-to-chest is used please.
    I'm gonna try to find such movements some vids ...

    Oh my, are we almost in the CMA technical discussion thread again?
  8. saturnjunkie is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 1:05pm


     Style: FMA & judo-ultra noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Rooster
    That's interesting Junkie.
    Can you ask him to show you a sequence in his bagua walking forms in which that left-step and right palm-to-chest is used please.
    I'm gonna try to find such movements some vids ...
    sure.
  9. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 5:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Skipping rope is conditioning, not technical training.
  10. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2007 10:34pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    Skipping rope is conditioning, not technical training.
    So is the speed bag.
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