unfair comments on the download BJJ vs Karate

[TheHungsta]

TheHungsta,

please do not interpret my comment in a negative way but from your post i understand that youdo nothave a background in okinwan karate.

Translation: I don't like you, or your argument, so I'm gonna resort to using needless and unneccessary insults. And I'm gonna disguise the fact that I'm insulting you by putting "please don't interpret it in a negative way" and then spouting out a bunch of crap. True, I don't have experience with the art but two of my friends take Ryu Kyu so I know a bit about the art.

however,you speak about pinan/heian. some says that have been created by Itosu (a skillful fighters)for PE curriculum, some syas that are comingfrom an old kata channan. Anyway what Itosu didis simple he transformed open hands hit in punch(less dangerous)andhe stressed in allthe katas the punch-blck combination but without taking off any techniques. If you keep thisin mind you can follow the katas and it is lecit to use open hands at some pont of the sequence without destroying going against the tradition.

The relevance of this statement is questionable.

Ihave a degree in sport sciencesand i did a dissertation on biomechanics of karate techniques therefore a bit understanding of biomechanics principles i have it. For instance the zenkutsu dachi position whatever in the modern karate or old give problems to the lowbak especialy if you keep the upper body inhyperlordosis and the stance very low.However funny enough the classi katas have a zenkutsu dachi very high,while style of modern karate and kung fu very low as you can see the newit millions of years before the science analysed the stances.

You probably know less about Kung Fu then I do about Karate so I wouldn't speak negatively about it.

JKA shotokan which i respect and studied stress almost all the time the execution of the punch either with hips rotation or thrusting forward of the hips giving a good physiological and biomechanical exaplanation, however i have tried to generatepower in this way and in the hip twisting way and the punch is much more stronger(maybe a bit dangerous for the neck- if you are not skilled you can hurt it)but very stronger. This hip twisting method that the okinwan use at medium and close range allowyou to produe a whiping motion and vibration that generate a big impact.I tried both on punch bags, with opponents and it was more powerful. then i did another drillthat can give you an idea of your punch if is powerfull (rember massx velocity. there is an okinwan technique you are in front of acandl and try with the punch to switch it off without touching. With the modern sound biomechanical punch i failed, with the twisting one i did it all the time!!

Almost every art produces power from the back leg and hip rotation, Karate is not unique in this respect.

now pinan, heian get an odd application of this katas from a classic shotokan book (i am not responsible for the wado,shitoetc...versions)ad i will give youan effective application even if respecting exactly the kata movements.

Why don't you give me an application for the 3rd/4th move of Sandan?(the double blocks). Last time I checked they were extremely unrealistic methods of arm breaking.

[TheHungsta]

Seriously, I'm curious to know what the move is for. Also, don't get me wrong, I have lots of respect for karate. I just don't like when people like you think that its automatically better than a bunch of other arts and you come here proclaiming Karate's superiority.

[deltaforce]

ok but it will be very difficult without pictures. i believe that you mean block step up and double block with the rigth arm up.

the technique can be a throw with arm manipulation ora pre emptive strike.

A person with the right hand grabs your left wrist as a result of a failed groing grab (kata situation start always with an immediate violent action that try to finish the situation as soon as possible)
you are in a neutral position to show the technique as clear as possible.

Throw

1)the initial action is to make yourfree hand (right)underits right elbow

2)do the first move of the kata (raise the left arm circularfrom the inside to outside) whilst you are pulling the opponent's arm towards you.

3) the hand right hand that was under his elbow twist the opponent arm

4)contemporary turn 90 degree on the left to drop the opponent on the floor.

Strike

again failed grab groing, the opponent grab your left wrist

2)do the first move of the kata (raise the left arm circularfrom the inside to outside) whilst you are pulling the opponent's arm towards you.

3)other hand with thumb fist (but remember Itosu changed open hand with fist so if you use an open hand techniques is valid)hit the opponent triple warmer 23 (at the end of the eyebrow in the depression of the temple)or belowtheear lobe.
your hand should obviously have undergone a makiwara training (however the katasconsider this obvious, you cannot train in karate without hand conditioning)

I finish with an excerpt from Sensei Egami (pupil of funakoshi)despite a lack of complete understanding ,one should not assume that the movements have no meaning. i advice performing the movements, thinking about them and interpreting them. this is practice (p 108 )

[Vapour]

I have commented what my view of proper bunkai in other thread so I won't comment here but here is my opinion of modern interpretation of bunkai as the way to reveal "hidden deadly technique".

The idea that bunkai make your karate technique deadly is total bullock IMO. The simple fact is that your basic techinque such as strike, elbow and knife hand should be deadly in the first place. If your basic techniques is not deadly, your karate will never be deadly no matter what kind of advance hidden techniques you learn from your bunkai.

Secondly, it is stupid to assume that one can hit pressure "point". Japanese translation of Kyushojutu is that kyu =weak/fatal sho=*PLACE/FIELD* jutu=techinque. Idea of kyushojutu is to hit "field" of body which is weak so knee kick is a valid kyushojutu attack and there is nothing hidden or secret about knee being one of the major weak point of human physiology. I'm not saying kyushojutu don't include point strike and there are certain pressure point which is easy to aim in certain situation but you ought to hit it with such force that you take down the opponent even if you don't manage to hit the point anyway. If your strike suck, knowing hidden technique to strike such point won't do anything.

Lastly, it is not correct to assume that it is easier to do all these deadly biting and pinching or pressure point attack on the ground if your opponent can do the same to you. The fact is that superior skill in groundwork make it easier to apply such forbidden technique because it is all about control of opponent that count. You can only apply choke or lock when you know the proper skill to control/hold opponent. This goes same with biting and pinching. Proficient grappler would learn how to use biting or pinching a pressure point to his advantage on the ground in a week and easily own (or maim, in this case) non-grappler with secret technique of kyushojutu. That is why stuff like biting or pinching is considered as a trick.

P.S. In aikido, pressure points are only taught to advanced student because it is pointless (not deadly) to teach beginner pressure points. To be honest, pressure points is more of trivia while major skill/principle/technique of aikido are taught right from the beginning.

.

Edited by - vapour on September 06 2003 16:24:41

[Pandinha]

Read the sig, and despair those of you that don't do BJJ.

[Choke]

Kata in the Karate styles is only a supplement to sparring, excercise, and conditioning.

Kata should never replace, or be equal to, drilling techniques.

[The Wastrel]

Deltaforce,
You are, by far, the worst poster I have ever seen. I ask that you leave this site immediately, and restore Fatality Dragon's delicately held raison d'etre.

[Boyd]

BAM! Wastrel's back in motherfucking ACTION!

[/QUOTE]"A blue belt can beat a black belt from any other art. A purple belt can beat his instructor. Past that, you don't want to know."[/quote]

What about a blue belt with shitty takedowns?


"A 'get well' card is not appropriate to someone with AIDS... We proposed a new line of cards to say things like, 'I admire the way you have lived your life and I admire the way you are facing your death.'"
--Ginnie Job, Hallmark writer

[Nihilanthic]

Can you say... buttscoot?

Though, I do not know how he would get a blue belt if he had shitty takedowns.

If if he did, he'd probably fumble, then take it to the ground, then win.

FLAME ON!

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

[deltaforce]

Vapour
"The idea that bunkai make your karate technique deadly is total bullock IMO."

i do not want to start a polemic, but i have to ask: have you trained with senior okinwan and japanese instructors? (in okinawa? and tokyo?)nope? I did and i teach, i do bogu kumite' do you know what is it??? and i do stages regularly, i also apply the concepts in the by day self defence (for security)
ok then why speak about something that it is clear you are not very into????. Otherwise if you are into you push me into ask you some questions about okinawa karate and you will be embarassed and risk to be stupid.

choke
again, the same discourse is valid for you

"Kata in the Karate styles is only a supplement to sparring, excercise, and conditioning. Kata should never replace, or be equal to, drilling techniques".

who says so?????? maybe in westernised and sport karate this can be true (even if the best JKA teachers they give same importance to kata as kihon and kumite' for example ISKF, AJKA, US JKA etc...)

in Okinawa kata is very, very , very important. In okinwa katas is first learnt, then applied in drills and then applied in bogu kumite' (free sparring and full contact with throws, grappling and strike etc.....) Katas do include strikes,kicks (low kicks), grappling or tegumi and throws. Sgsin why say something stupid, i thought that here there are people cleve, never speak if you do not know because people that they know they have 100 weapons to make you look like stupid!!
"Wastrel"
"Deltaforce,
You are, by far, the worst poster I have ever seen. I ask that you leave this site immediately, and restore Fatality Dragon's delicately held raison d'etre".

the raison d' etre of my interventions in this forum is to educate ignorant like you, unfortunately untill you will post your stupid phrases without meanings,(by the way do you know french????? i know it prettty well because i do seminars in France) i will always make you look like an ass.

for anthony a
"Read the sig, and despair those of you that don't do BJJ"
i am very happy that you know BJJ (by the way what does it mean ? blow job job???)

i would like to be more constructive in this forum and argue not insult people (it is not my style) but unfortunately the level of who posts is not always first class