Posted On:8/28/2003 5:12am
okinwan karatejutsu or ruykyu kempo are complete martial arts with techniques at long,medium and close range.They include tegumi(grappling,strike on vulnerable points,kick only below the tanden (low kick)use of sparring with full contact (bogu kumite'), throws techniques.the katas are important because the systems are recorded on the katas (to have an idea of it please look Funakoshi karate jutsu or motobu ryu kyu kempo karate).
what you are judging is sport karate (derived buy Itosu curriculum for PE) that has nothing to do with what i am speaking. together with more practical bunkai for katas differences are for instance in the use of punch gien at 45 degree' and not rotated, extensive use of open hands techniques included ipponken (refer to Funakoshi),
use of double hip movement or hip vibration at close range which develop a strong hit etc....
fullcontact karate is not an original idea born in US was used in okinawa for centuries as bogu kumite'. The us marine which have trained in karate in okinawa (without being revealed the application of katas bunkai-the usual block punch ****- the okinwan are very jelous ofkatas applications they got money but without revealing anything)brought this idea in US.
a consideration have you have try bogu kumite' i did and is pretty rough; second have you ever tried receive in face a modified punch,empi trained everyday with classic makiwara training, nope??? good! if Mas Oyama got through you were fucked!!
Posted On:8/28/2003 6:29pm
Arrived very late to this thread, sorry about that.
Somewhere on the 1st page it was mentioned that in the UFCs, biting, eye gouging etc are banned. In the earlier ones all techniques were allowed and it didnt make any difference.
Kicking them in the head while they are shooting also wouldnt work unless the BJJer was incompetant and started his shoot from too far out.
Genuine question for deltaforce. What is the proper name for "classical" shotokan? Wasnt that the name of his dojo in Japan or something(which wouldnt apply to his Okinawan art). Want to do some research because it sounds interesting.
Posted On:8/28/2003 8:40pm
Style: Boxing and Moo Duk Kwan
Both Deltaforce and Anthony A have interesting points.
War is fucking war. Its like fucking chess. One move is good for a kill yet vunerable to be killed. I don't care what you trained in we all die the same. It doesn't matter what style each army trains in, how hard the training is that prevails.
For any fighter to ge a good one, that fighter has to know how to fight close quarter.
Posted On:8/29/2003 9:10am
"classical shotokan" is a term created by me (even if others usually also used it)to point out the difference between Funakoshi's karate pre japanisation and the shotokan (JKA) and shotokai(egami)that now exist in japan.
Funakoshi did not like any terms about his karate, shotokan was given by his pupils. he called him just karate.Classical shotokan can be found in the first book that funakoshi wrote Ryukyu kempo karate (1922)and the latest edition rentan goshin karate jutsu (now published by kodanshaas as karate jutsu, the original teachings of sensei Funakoshi.The latest book (kyohan, pubblished by kodansha with oshima as performer)reproduced almost exactly the katas and principles performed by funakoshi in karate jutsu but is also influenced by the son Giko (a very skilled fighters-Mas oyama comment)you can see the evolution with deeper stances, introduction of yokogeri and mawashi etc. However the principles remain unchanged and also the techniques.
in both books, funakoshi argue that karate is not only punch and blocks but throws and grappling and invite the reader to study them using the relevant katas.In karatejutsu it is very clear that funakoshi di not change any techniques.Every expert of okinawa karate knows that Nagamine Matsubayahi ryu has kept the old katas of shuri and tomari te without changing them. If you get the copy of the book Karate jutsu (kodansha)and compare it with the katas in the book of Nagamine Sensei (the essence of okinwa karate,Tuttle eds)you will notice that in all the funakoshi katas there are the techniques found in Nagamine.All the stances are there (high and not low), there are minor differences in the katas execution (remember funakoshi created another style) but the logic is the same,even the name are the same. compare pinan nidan of Nagamine with pinan shodan of funakoshi. then remember another thing katas should be interpreted as isolate episodes and not a continuous fight therefore as long as the episodes is insid the form but the sequence as been sligthly changed it however retain the same meaning.
katas are short fight episodes arranged in sequences to be rembered.why do shuto uke with movement at 45 degree because at 45 degree the shuto will work better.in his book funakoshi speak about hikite and give the explannation that the other punch on the hip means that you pull and opponents towards you while with the other hand you finish it.In sport karate hikite is explained becaue give more power to punch bulshit!!!
in katas there are blocks but when are repeted more than one time in a row that are not blocks anymore. Example in heian shodan you block (age uke)than you open the hand (kyohan book-oshima)than you hit 3times with age uke what does it mean simple (oshima explained that when a hand is open it means you get an arm of the opponent)and the other 3 hit are smashing techniques on the weakpoints of the head and neck. Katas was done for experienced fighters that should know the taisabaki therefore does not show it because it give this notion automatic.
katas were nto created to fight a karateka or martial artists, for this it was enough the kumite' (full contact sparring)it was done for real self defence situations with non expert (asin today society) to end the confrontation immeddiately. therefore, an advice if you listen an explanation where an opponent attack with an oi tsuki and you have to block it 3 times with a gedan barai it is rubbish!!!
regarding the extensively use of the punchs in katas such as Itosu and funakoshi,the reality is that Itosu changed open hands techniques with punch to make karate more suitable forteching in PE with childrn and less dangerous. itosu also changed the use of the punch rotating it all way through, and taught a more advanced punch 3/4 punch only tothe best pupils. This punch is more effective and from a biomechanics point of view more natural,you can notice that becaus if you hit the makiwara instinctively you will hit it with a 3/4.This has been documentd by Hohan soken (one of the last best okinwan masters)and it is shown in the funakoshi book when he train on the makiwara.
i can speak about the difference betwen the more efective way to strike of the okinwan karate(also used by funakoshi) in relation to japanese karate used by JA etc.. but it is to long and donot want to bore people
Posted On:8/29/2003 9:15am
quick comment if yousee the hand of funakshi in karate jutsu (enormous)and his physique you would not think that he was a philosophical geek
Posted On:8/29/2003 4:05pm
thanks for the info!
it sounds similar in ways to what i used to do with bunkai (blocks as attacks etc)
Posted On:8/29/2003 10:34pm
Katas contains all you need to defend yourself in the street at long,medium,close range (shime waza- chokes & stranges,tachi waza-throws,ashi waza- foot sweeps, kansetsu waza- rm locks. It is necessary that you understand the meaningand bunkai:
to do so keep in mind these rules (Aberthy):
1) all ata applications are designed to end confrontation there and then
2) all parts of movementsare significant
3)every kata move is designed for use in combat
4)the angle at which techniques is performed is important
5) the stances are vital part of teechniques
6)real fights are sloppy affairs and the way the application is performed will reflect this
7)strikes should be delivered to anatomical weak points
8) there are many effective applicatins for every mvemnt
9) all applications must be workable in real situations
the karate of gickin funakoshi can be seen in the book Karate jutsu(extremely similar to Matsubayashi ryu of okinawa)In this bok and in karate Kyohan a person understand the real Funakoshis' karate
Just because the moves are hidden in katas does not make them effective. The throws of Judo and San Shou are more brutal. Almost every other style has similar or more effective sweeps, and kata applications that were effective years ago, with their limit technology, and limited knowledge of biomechanics, are often outmoded in modern situations. Many of the applications are actually quite unrealistic, especially those of the Heian series (mainly Sandan).
Posted On:8/30/2003 7:47am
please do not interpret my comment in a negative way but from your post i understand that youdo nothave a background in okinwan karate.
however,you speak about pinan/heian. some says that have been created by Itosu (a skillful fighters)for PE curriculum, some syas that are comingfrom an old kata channan. Anyway what Itosu didis simple he transformed open hands hit in punch(less dangerous)andhe stressed in allthe katas the punch-blck combination but without taking off any techniques. If you keep thisin mind you can follow the katas and it is lecit to use open hands at some pont of the sequence without destroying going against the tradition.
Ihave a degree in sport sciencesand i did a dissertation on biomechanics of karate techniques therefore a bit understanding of biomechanics principles i have it. For instance the zenkutsu dachi position whatever in the modern karate or old give problems to the lowbak especialy if you keep the upper body inhyperlordosis and the stance very low.However funny enough the classi katas have a zenkutsu dachi very high,while style of modern karate and kung fu very low as you can see the newit millions of years before the science analysed the stances.
JKA shotokan which i respect and studied stress almost all the time the execution of the punch either with hips rotation or thrusting forward of the hips giving a good physiological and biomechanical exaplanation, however i have tried to generatepower in this way and in the hip twisting way and the punch is much more stronger(maybe a bit dangerous for the neck- if you are not skilled you can hurt it)but very stronger. This hip twisting method that the okinwan use at medium and close range allowyou to produe a whiping motion and vibration that generate a big impact.I tried both on punch bags, with opponents and it was more powerful. then i did another drillthat can give you an idea of your punch if is powerfull (rember massx velocity. there is an okinwan technique you are in front of acandl and try with the punch to switch it off without touching. With the modern sound biomechanical punch i failed, with the twisting one i did it all the time!!
now pinan, heian get an odd application of this katas from a classic shotokan book (i am not responsible for the wado,shitoetc...versions)ad i will give youan effective application even if respecting exactly the kata movements.
Posted On:8/30/2003 7:58am
"are often outmoded in modern situations"
physiologically, psycologically (the pshychology ofconfrontation) and biomechanically, our body do not change (we are not computers that we up to date)we are able to move our bodies in the same way of 100 years time(rotation,flexion etc....)
but i can tell you even something more, while in old time you went out (in okinwa) by feet or maximum by horse todo something and you could have been attached by people with swords, or multiple opponents and die(not a very goodpolice and security systems such as lights in the street,not cars to escape, not fair justice).
our society, even with its violence,is far more secure than okinawa orotheancient society which were very violent.so you want me make to believe that they developed an unrealistic streetfight sistem and had the hassle to forward by generations uselnessy ????????The katas techniques are not for martial art competition were you would be disqualified if yo do the headbutt found in the goju kururunfa kata.Are for street fighting with people that do not know martial arts.for people who knew martial arts there was the kumite' technique (full contact)
Posted On:8/30/2003 8:08am
For some applications of the Pinan series of Katas in Wado-Ryu try Shingo Ohgami's book 'the karate katas of Wado-Ryu'.
There is a wealth of interpretations out there, some sensible, others quite far-fetched. The first move of Pinan Shodan shows the variety quite well, with some saying it's a hammer fist to an attackers arm, but I prefer the explanation of it being a lock and throw.
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