Posted On:8/26/2003 8:57am
I think that the commentson this download have been unfair.The BJJ guy in a real self defence situatin could have been hit when was coming towards the karateka with a mae geri in the face, on the back with a smashing technique such as empi uchi (elbow strike) and on the ground with other techniques that can be found in old shotokan katas(pre JKA)
The old okinwan karate (i include funakoshis karate pre japanization contained ithe book Karate jutsu) was a very violent self defence system :Techniques such as Close Range Striking, Throws & Takedowns, Chokes & Strangles, Arm Locks, Leg & Ankle locks, Neck Cranks, Wrist Locks, Finger Locks etc. are all included within the karate katas.
As Ian Abernethy argues http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_1.htm:
"In a mixed martial arts tournament (such as the Ultimate Fighting Championship) it is quite common to see contestants opt for the fight to go to the ground. This is a sound strategy if the contestant knows that they possess superior ground fighting skills to their opponent. In today's society real fights are rarely one on one for any length of time and hence opting for a ground fight is a sure way to get 'a good kicking' from your assailant's colleagues (or anyone else who fancies a 'free shot'). In the UFC, techniques such as biting, crushing the testicles, gouging the eyes etc. are banned. And yet these are the norm (and a highly effective 'norm') in a self-defence situation. Possibly the most significant difference between sport ground fighting and real ground fighting is the 'intent' behind the fight. In a sporting contest your aim is to win the tournament. In a real fight your aim is to assure your safety. In my dojo, the ground fighting practice revolves around the regaining of an upright position so that student can flee. In a competition match the strategy may well be: A, Take the fight to the floor. B, Keep the fight on the floor. C, Weaken and tire the opponent. D, Get the opponent to submit using the techniques allowed in the rules. In a real fight (and hence the method used in the katas) the strategy would be: A, Avoid going to the floor at all costs. B, If the fight does go to the floor, regain your feet as quickly as possible. C, If getting up is not immediately possible, then hurt the opponent using simple (probably brutal) techniques. D, Once back to your feet, escape and seek shelter or help. Throughout the katas the majority of close range techniques begin with an attempt to seize the throat, gouge the eyes or crush the testicles (sometimes a combination thereof). Any of these techniques will end a fight almost instantly (and that is why the katas favour them). Should these techniques be thwarted, the katas contain numerous locks, strikes, throws etc. that flow on from these initial techniques. It is important to understand that the katas record the key strategies and fighting principles of their creators. These strategies and principles are far more important that the techniques used to demonstrate them. When a fight hits the ground, the same strategy as used when vertical would be adopted by the karateka - if you can't get up instantly, then seize the throat, gouge the eyes or crush the testicles (obviously, these techniques are only justified in extreme circumstances - which is what kata is all about). If that is not possible then attack the opponent using the locks, chokes, strangles contained within the katas. The kata rarely demonstrates these techniques on the floor (although it does on occasion), as the preferred option is to remain vertical. However, the principles upon which the techniques rest are consistent whether the techniques are utilised vertically or horizontally"
so maybe we should make a difference between realistic self defence and sport even if violent as K1
Co-Founder, Retired Admin
Posted On:8/26/2003 9:09am
Style: BJJ, Karate,
He got his azz kicked because he techniques and method of study he employed were far below that of his opponent.
Anything that HE could have done to his opponent(biting, grabbing) could have been done to HIM faster and easier because he was in a very bad position and his opponent commanded all the leverage.
"All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC
Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
Posted On:8/26/2003 9:11am
predicted responses: "what, you think trained grapplers can't eye-gouge too?" "what, you think grappling consists entirely of 'rolling around'?"
Whenever I see arguments like this from TMAists, they strike me as desperate self-justification.
[and this is coming from a TMAist...]
Posted On:8/26/2003 9:12am
yeah well, the "karate" guy lost
"In my dojo, the ground fighting practice revolves around the regaining of an upright position so that student can flee. "
and that is self-defense
hey if you do karate, and can do well in all ranges, then good for you
some BJJers like their sport fighting and romoing around
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Posted On:8/26/2003 9:35am
So many karate dudes are soooo clueless!!
Posted On:8/26/2003 9:38am
i don't know about the karate guy of the match, for what i knowcan be the less effective fighters of the earth. I am talking about systems and old okinwan karate not the JKA shotokan is very effective i can assure you!,however i have also seen what the kyokushinkai arateka has done to the wing chun artist.
I am arguing that street self defence is another thing than this sport competition. Try in a fight to bend towards the legs of your opponent and look how many kick and strike you get on your head!!!!!
Dont be pissed at HIM though, be pissed at his INSTRUCTOR. Too many instructors are teaching and they have NO knowledge of HOW to teach. They just mimick what their instructor taught them and the chances are that THIER instructor ALSO never learned how to teach, he just did martial arts.
I know alot about history but Im not a history teacher. That would take STUDY on how to translate information at a proper pace and how to control a class and speak before an audience.
Posted On:8/26/2003 9:44am
In my dojo, the ground fighting practice revolves around the regaining of an upright position so that student can flee. "
yes this is self defence because when you flee you have already strike the guy to the eyes or the testicles.
please, i thought that wa a forum and not a place when it is not possible to have your opinion! read all the article
another thing, i am not a student but an instructor and i work in the security industry so i know about what i say
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