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  1. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 5:26pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd
    It's just a cop-out, really. The entire phrase "I'm not doing this to become a cage fighter" or "I have a day job", while true for 95% of the martial arts-training population, is used almost exclusively by pussies trying to justify putting the bare minimum of effort into their training. How many times have you heard "I'm not trying to become a 300-pound steroid monster" by the asshole that chats on his cell phone in the gym?

    Under normal circumstances and in a normal hobby, I would say that if these people want to short-change themselves, so be it. It's not my problem and in no way affects my training. Except...it does. The naturally violent nature of martial arts lends itself to a certain backlash, an inherent (and oftentimes justified) fear of training too hard for fear of injury. This fear splinters off into the myraid issues the martial arts face today, virtually all of which have been addressed at this site eleventy billion times.

    If you have one fifty-year old accountant with a bad knee sitting out of sparring at the end of class, he's not hurting anyone. But what if he doesn't have a bad knee and just wants to pretend "being fifty" is an injury? What happens if that accountant is middle-aged and starts saying "Oh, I'm just here to have fun and increase my flexibility! ;)"? Now what if you've got several middle-aged accountants that signed up for a glorified yoga class? And they're talking, unionizing, spreading ideas and feeding a self-perpetuating cycle of victimhood and self pity founded on the delusional belief that only professionals should take pride in their work? Now the school's owner, facing a large group of students disinterested in any form of challenge, has to alter his curriculum to accomodate them.

    It's a frightening scenario, and as outlandish as it sounds, it's been happening all over the country. Of course most people do not train to be a cage fighter, and most people do work 9-5 jobs and can't afford to be injured. But using those ideas are crutches instead of realities leads to half-assed training, which in the end, benefits no one.
    Good. Now get back into the main forum and start making this point to everybody who goes to a BJJ class, rolls around on the floor with rules like 'don't slam me on the floor' or 'don't punch me in the face' but thinks they are part of one big familly of aliveness with their favourite partially BJJ-trained MMA fighter who gets kneed in the face for a living.

    Replace 'middle aged accountant' in your example with 'middle class college kid who watches MMA on TV but doesn't _really_ want to get punched in the face hard'.

    You do realise that 'hobbyist MMA' as expressed in the popularity of low-impact floor grappling is another, cleverly insidious, example of this trend, don't you ?
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  2. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 5:37pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Good. Now get back into the main forum and start making this point to everybody who goes to a BOXING class, RUNS AROUND THE RING with rules like 'don't KICK ME IN THE LEGS' or 'don't KICK me in the face' but thinks they are part of one big familly of aliveness with their favourite partially BOXING-trained MMA fighter who gets kneed in the face for a living.
    Your addition is borderline idiotic. Training under a restricted ruleset is far different than a refusal to participate in any sort of randori.
  3. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 5:50pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    Your addition is borderline idiotic. Training under a restricted ruleset is far different than a refusal to participate in any sort of randori.
    Not all CMAists refuse to participate in any sort of sparring (go and look at the 'no video, it didn't happen' thread). The best CMA has to offer involves quality, hard contact standup with takedowns. Many 'nutriders' fail to see the differences between the ruleset they train under/for and the ruleset that their heroes competed under.

    I maintain that many of the BJJ 'aliveness police' rarely if ever engage in 'sparring' that does not involve rolling on the floor with no striking or slamming allowed. Which for people who claim to have the wave of the future on preparation for 'real fights' is clearly fucking ludicrous.

    Of course I know not all BJJ practitioners who post here fall into that category.
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  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 5:57pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Not all CMAists refuse to participate in any sort of sparring (go and look at the 'no video, it didn't happen' thread). The best CMA has to offer involves quality, hard contact standup with takedowns. Many 'nutriders' fail to see the differences between the ruleset they train under/for and the ruleset that their heroes competed under.

    I maintain that many of the BJJ 'aliveness police' rarely if ever engage in 'sparring' that does not involve rolling on the floor with no striking or slamming allowed. Which for people who claim to have the wave of the future on preparation for 'real fights' is clearly fucking ludicrous.

    Of course I know not all BJJ practitioners who post here fall into that category.
    Right but it is still sparring. We are talking about hobbyists that choose not to spar at all.

    Huge difference.
  5. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 5:59pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Good. Now get back into the main forum and start making this point to everybody who goes to a BJJ class, rolls around on the floor with rules like 'don't slam me on the floor' or 'don't punch me in the face' but thinks they are part of one big familly of alivenesswith their favourite partially BJJ-trained MMA fighter who gets kneed in the face for a living.
    Aliveness != No Rules
    Aliveness <> No Rules
    Aliveness is not a ruleset it is a method of training.
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 6:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Right but it is still sparring. We are talking about hobbyists that choose not to spar at all.

    Huge difference.
    Not really. It's easy to kid yourself that you're part of the 'aliveness revolution' popularised by televised MMA whilst only sparring in a format where pain disappears with a tap. It's just not the same as getting hit in the face or flung through the air and slammed on the floor.
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  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 6:11pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Not really. It's easy to kid yourself that you're part of the 'aliveness revolution' popularised by televised MMA whilst only sparring in a format where pain disappears with a tap. It's just not the same as getting hit in the face or flung through the air and slammed on the floor.
    Okay what thread did you read and can you direct me there?

    Not sparring at all and consigning yourself to one range aren't even in the same ballpark.
  8. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 6:15pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Okay what thread did you read and can you direct me there?

    Not sparring at all and consigning yourself to one range aren't even in the same ballpark.
    Yes they are. Confining yourself not only to a single 'range' but also employing rules which remove much of the jarring and sudden impacts of a real fight whilst insisting that you are participating in the forefront of modern training for real fighting is an exercise in self-delusion.

    So what if there's an element of physical competition? I could call fixed-step pushing hands 'sparring' by those criteria (it's clearly not btw).

    The difference is that one set of delusional people are fantasizing about mediaeval china, and the other group's fantasies come from watching the UFC.
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  9. MrMcFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 6:36pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    The difference is that one set of delusional people are fantasizing about mediaeval china, and the other group's fantasies come from watching the UFC.
    Except that BJJers learn to fight effectively at a particular range.
  10. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 6:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMcFu
    Except that BJJers learn to fight effectively at a particular range.
    Not if they train completely without striking and slamming they don't. They're doing a drill which develops some of the skills they see used in the UFC, but without that 'ouch I just got fucking clocked in the face' nastiness that the real MMA fighters experience.
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