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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 1:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, what about the person who's taking, say Muay Thai, and does all the rope jumping, calistenics, bag work, pad/mitt drills, and conditioning like everyone else, but doesn't spar? Is he learning anything? Is he not "training"? I have a feeling this is not a clear-cut yes/no question.

    On the other hand, what if a person goes to a BJJ or Judo school, does all the calistenics, body conditioning and drills, BUT skips sparring? In this particular case, one can categorically say that person is not learning or training, no matter how hard the "warmups" are (which can be as fucking hard as sparring itself.)

    This person is not learning anything and he is not training. In these type of cases, it is impossible to learn without sparring. No way jose. Never.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 5/04/2007 1:29pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. Neildo is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 1:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wait, i thought kung fu was all about whupping the ass. wtf is this ****?
  3. Scott Larson is online now
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    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 1:43pm


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    Ok, what about the person who's taking, say Muay Thai, and does all the rope jumping, calistenics, bag work, pad/mitt drills, and conditioning like everyone else, but doesn't spar? Is he learning anything? Is he not "training"? I have a feeling this is not a clear-cut yes/no question.

    On the other hand, what if a person goes to a BJJ or Judo school, does all the calistenics, body conditioning and drills, BUT skips sparring? In this particular case, one can categorically say that person is not learning or training, no matter how hard the "warmups" are (which can be as fucking hard as sparring itself.)

    This person is not learning anything and he is not training. In these type of cases, it is impossible to learn without sparring. No way jose. Never.
    This is very interesting. I agree with most of what you are saying, but I wouldn't say the person is learning nothing. I would say that at some point that one would have to spar for it to be a complete martial art. Without that you can't put the word "martial" in it.
  4. Ronin.74 is online now

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 1:45pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    The single most fundamental defining element of a fighter is the sheer hunger to close the gap.

    This hunger is independent of the exercise of better judgment; Its pangs cause such an aching desire to want to go forward even when to do so isn't tactically or strategically a great idea.


    Fighters want to fight.

    Some fighters can't gain control over the hunger.

    Not every Martial Artist is a fighter.

    Some non-fighters have learned to eat a little bit even if they are not feeling the hunger.





    ... And, some people subsist on "junk food". :smile:
    Tom's analogy is excellent, just switch the word "non-fighter" for "hobbyist" and it would be even better.

    When I was younger I sparred full contact kickboxing. No headgear, no shin pads (we wore the little booties! Fortunately no one kicked with their shins), and usually no cup. We had boxing gloves, mouthpiece and our padded boots. At that time I was trying to be a fighter, I did a little amateur KB in the ring, but mostly just hard sparring. After about 8 months of hard sparring 3-4 days a week, I noticed that I started to stutter when I talked. Being a college student I decided that I didn't want to be a fighter anymore, so my sparring days became very far and few between.

    These days I don't spar very often. I do some light - medium contact occassionally and some timing. In timing your making contact as if your hitting a 2 yr old, but I generally push my partners to hit me much harder than others, becuase I feel I get more out of timing that way. I have gloved up and gone full go in recent months at the request of my Baji instructor, but it's not something I do regularly.

    I think all students should have to do hard sparring at least on a short term basis just to get a feel for it. After which I think you will get stuck with one of 3 kinds of people. Fighters, Hobbyists, Larpers

    Fighters will do hard sparring and like it.

    Hobbyists try hard sparring and decide it's not for them. Having done hard sparring and survived, they are not really afraid of it anymore. If necessary they can step up and spar, they just prefer not to. They should still do some sparring even if it's light contact or just timing. But they are not fighters, not because of fear but just because of their personality.

    Larpers will want nothing to do with sparring. They will see full contact hard sparring and immediately decide they want nothing to do with it. These students will only be interested in forms and theory.

    The Larpers are fine with me, they help pay the bills so the Fighters can continue to have a place to train. What is not ok is when the Larpers start to believe they are as skilled and deadly as the fighters simply because they train in the same facility.

    For the record, I am a hobbyist.
  5. Guizzy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 1:47pm


     Style: Baihequan, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    Ok, what about the person who's taking, say Muay Thai, and does all the rope jumping, calistenics, bag work, pad/mitt drills, and conditioning like everyone else, but doesn't spar? Is he learning anything? Is he not "training"? I have a feeling this is not a clear-cut yes/no question.

    On the other hand, what if a person goes to a BJJ or Judo school, does all the calistenics, body conditioning and drills, BUT skips sparring? In this particular case, one can categorically say that person is not learning or training, no matter how hard the "warmups" are (which can be as fucking hard as sparring itself.)

    This person is not learning anything and he is not training. In these type of cases, it is impossible to learn without sparring. No way jose. Never.
    Indeed; I very much agree here.

    A punch, whether or not there is someone to recieve it, stays a punch. The resistance of a person to a punch can be replaced by a bag or a pad. Of course, if I were to judge if that alone is a good training methodology, I'd say it's not, but the tools are still being trained.

    Grappling without a partner is... Probably a major sign of mental illness.


    ---

    My opinion echo yours; it's their choice not to spar, and if they don't want to spar, their bad. Even light contact sparring would make a dramatic difference in their training, but hey; who am I to judge.

    But on the other hand, I can certainly feel the results of this approach. My school would spar much more if my teacher was not worried about keeping the newer, weaker and less "hardcore" students. I'd say less than 10% of newcomers train with us for more than 6 months, where they barely start seeing real results for their efforts. This is mostly due to the harshness of the training when compared to the people that are attracted by the "kung fu" name. Honestly, I haven't heard of anyone leaving us because they thought our training wasn't useful or wasn't hard enough. Any less students (which could be prompted by using more time for sparring, and an increase in the contact level) could mean that the school is no longer viable.

    At the very least, at my school, students have to show they are able of sparring during their first grading. They have to show they are able to spar bareknuckle safely, because the first grading is mostly the part where the students truly interested in learning how to fight are weeded out. And after that grading, the students left know what to do and are encouraged to spar more outside of normal classtime. And personally, I live pretty far from my school and can't exactly stay long outside of our classtime.

    So if I could, I'd force them all to spar.
    Last edited by Guizzy; 5/04/2007 2:04pm at .
  6. Ronin.74 is online now

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 1:51pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    Ok, what about the person who's taking, say Muay Thai, and does all the rope jumping, calistenics, bag work, pad/mitt drills, and conditioning like everyone else, but doesn't spar? Is he learning anything? Is he not "training"? I have a feeling this is not a clear-cut yes/no question.
    On the other hand, what if a person goes to a BJJ or Judo school, does all the calistenics, body conditioning and drills, BUT skips sparring? In this particular case, one can categorically say that person is not learning or training, no matter how hard the "warmups" are (which can be as fucking hard as sparring itself.)

    This person is not learning anything and he is not training. In these type of cases, it is impossible to learn without sparring. No way jose. Never.
    This is a good point. At the Muay Thai gym I trained at in Korea we had a guy that didn't spar. He came in did all the training, pads, bagwork, clinchwork, but no sparring. He one day decided to enter an 8 man Muay Thai tournament. He lost in the finals by decision. He definitely was learning even without sparring. Of course the argument can be made that had he sparred he would have had easier fights and possibly won the decision.
  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 2:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho

    On the other hand, what if a person goes to a BJJ or Judo school, does all the calistenics, body conditioning and drills, BUT skips sparring? In this particular case, one can categorically say that person is not learning or training, no matter how hard the "warmups" are (which can be as fucking hard as sparring itself.)

    Given the present condition of my back this is exactly how I am going to do BJJ for the next couple months.

    Better than nothing.
  8. Southpaw is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 2:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There seems to be an agreement between most of us that a person who doesn't spar isn't going to get very good...but that is their problem, and not ours.

    I disagree w/ that. People who don't spar generally make very shitty training partners...and shitty training partners bring the overall calibur of the school down. People who don't spar usually don't know how to throw a punch, they react like a spaz then you get them into postions they are not comfortable with...and they generally do no fucking good when you get paired up w/ them to train.

    There's a guy at my BJJ school that always leaves class as soon as our instructor tells us it is rolling time. He's been there about 8 months longer than me and I avoid training with him like the plague because he sucks ass.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 2:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    Given the present condition of my back this is exactly how I am going to do BJJ for the next couple months.

    Better than nothing.
    Well, there is a difference in skipping sparring due to an injury, and skipping it just because. Intent indicates mindset... I don't know where I'm going with that, but that **** sounds deep.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2007 3:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The thing is I have come to love to spar and grapple. I was lucky I had good instructors who made it fun and kept it interesting.

    Not sparring / rolling is very boring. In fact last time I hurt my back (three weeks ago) was because I couldn't stand not to roll and jumped in there after sitting out for 5 minutes.

    I feel sorry for people who train at places that have shitty or no sparring they're missing a lot of fun.

    By the way in regards to stand up most of my sparring is medium / medium hard.

    Occasionally you get smacked hard but not enough to make you start stuttering. There's pros and cons to this but it's definitely more fun this way.
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