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  1. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 4:01pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    Hello there.

    Since you are new, you need to know the following. When you claim someone is a fraud, you need to back it up with actual facts. For example, let's assume someone, Bob, and Bob says he is a lawyer graduated and accredited in the US. Then I come and say that's bullshit. I can make that accusation if I can demonstrate he's never gone to grad school in the US, for example.

    So your accusation of DeLucia is lacking that. So please provide us with plenty of details why he does not have a background in CMA as he claims.
    Demands to prove a negative constitutes a basic logical fallacy.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 4:30pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Culled from:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54324

    I moved this because it is tangental to the discussion of Jason Delucia.




    You can prove a negative to the exact same extent that you can prove a positive. It is not being "negative" that makes a proposition difficult to prove, but the breadth of the assertion.


    Example: Every BJJ black belt has superior skills.

    All you would have to do is find one black belt with inferior skills to disprove that positive assumption. (Side step the 'he doesn't have the real _razilian _iu _itsu' argument for the moment.) However just because every black belt you can find has "superior skills" doesn't mean you won't find an inferior one hiding around the corner in next dojo. Any conclusion using induction - positive or negative - has the same difficulties because any inductive argument can be rephrased in the positive or the negative.


    When it comes to determining fraud, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The accused (especially one with ample evidence he/she is not at all a fraud) is presumed innocent until shown otherwise.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 5/02/2007 4:41pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
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    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
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    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  3. alex is online now
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    STOP POSTING!

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 4:44pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 4:52pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, now that I think about it, "You can't prove a negative" is, in fact, a negative assertion.

    If you could show it to be true, this would mean you just proved a negative.




    Okay, now my head hurts.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 5/02/2007 4:56pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  5. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 4:58pm

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another awful thread culled from a thread that belongs in Trollshido...brought to you by Tom Kagan...
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 5:13pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracky McSlugHoot
    Another awful thread culled from a thread that belongs in Trollshido...brought to you by Tom Kagan...

    You're just jealous you don't have such trolling powers anymore.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. kohadril is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 5:13pm


     Style: BJJ, Debate-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tom:

    My understanding is it's more like you can't prove either a negative or a positive. The reason logicians and philosophers often make the statement "you can't prove a negative" is based upon the frequency with which advocates of spurious claims demand that their assertions be disproved as a response to calls for substantiation. It's not a hard and fast rule; full understanding of the directionality of presumption and the evidenciary burden requires more discussion of Occam's Razor and related philosophy.

    When it comes to determining fraud, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The accused (especially one with ample evidence he/she is not at all a fraud) is presumed innocent until shown otherwise.
    That depends on who's claiming what, how incredible it is, and whether the person making the disputed claim is willing to provide material to aid in substantiation. Someone shouldn't be able to make a claim, then deny those investigating it access to information that would help them to verify or falsify that claim while hiding behind the protection of presumptive innocence.
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 5:23pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kohadril
    Tom:

    My understanding is it's more like you can't prove either a negative or a positive. The reason logicians and philosophers often make the statement "you can't prove a negative" is based upon the frequency with which advocates of spurious claims demand that their assertions be disproved as a response to calls for substantiation. It's not a hard and fast rule; full understanding of the directionality of presumption and the evidenciary burden requires more discussion of Occam's Razor and related philosophy.

    I agree. However, starting from the presumption an assertion (positive or negative) is false is merely the generally accepted way to acknowledge that induction is not infallible. Because of this, Occam's razor demands a substitution of a simpler rule: insufficient evidence = non-belief.


    Quote Originally Posted by kohadril
    That depends on who's claiming what, how incredible it is, and whether the person making the disputed claim is willing to provide material to aid in substantiation. Someone shouldn't be able to make a claim, then deny those investigating it access to information that would help them to verify or falsify that claim while hiding behind the protection of presumptive innocence.

    If you reread what I wrote, I specifically addressed the what is needed to when you suggest "that depends". So, while what you say is technically correct, it is stated without examining the specifics of this instance.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 5/02/2007 5:27pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  9. kohadril is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 5:29pm


     Style: BJJ, Debate-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    If you reread what I wrote, I specifically addressed the what is needed to when you suggest "that depends". So, while what you say is technically correct, it is stated without examining the specifics of this instance.
    I did read it, I just wasn't sure about how the presumption of innocence interacted with your earlier discussion of the imperfections of inductive proof. Presuming innocence, in my mind, seemed inconsistent with presuming based upon sufficiency and efficiency. The push was to get you to explain. I'm satisfied we're on the same page.
  10. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2007 5:36pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wouldnt proof of a negative , be determined by the context of the word "negative"?

    If someone claims to be a trainer of many top ranked pro MMA fighters, and this factoid is proven as a lie, then could it not be construed as having a "negative" effect on the person?

    Instead of the lie being a positive point for training at said school, it would be a negative.

    If someone cries fraud then the burden of proof should be on them. Therefore, the demand to prove a "negative" is not fallacious when taken in context.
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