Can arts like KukSool, HapKiDo, HwarangDo, etc. be saved?

**Wolf** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 12:56am

As some of you know my background lies in Kuk Sool. I still like to believe that this art has it's application, but like so many KMA's it has become a system that is almost completely trained in a dead manner. From what I've seen HKD and HRD are both very similar and suffer from basically the same issues. These are the pros and cons of the systems as I see them.

Pros
------------
Wide array of strikes
Combines striking and joint-locking
Solid education in breakfalling

Cons
------------
Too many joint-locking and throwing techniques
Many impractical joint-locking and throwing techniques
The techniques are mostly taught in dead patterns without teaching improvisation.
No hard sparring.
Poor quality control over promotion.

Basically these arts originally tried very hard to do what MMA has accomplished today. Unfortunatly the lack of sparring with any sort of contact or live resistive application of techniques has killed the practicality of these arts. My suggestions...
1) Pare down the curriculum by getting rid of the totally impractical techs
2) At higher belt levels increase contact in sparring and allow throws/takedowns/joint locks
3) Include a live sparring component to advanced belt tests. You don't fight well, you don't promote.
4) The weapons study can remain as long as it doesn't preclude the above.

I understand that bringing about all of these changes is nigh on impossible, but I would love to see some respect get back to these types of arts. What other changes do people see as necessary?

**new2bjj** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 10:08am

The problem is, you can go and study some arts that are already alive, so why bother.

**Wolf** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 10:28am

Some people prefer the other aspects of a style, i.e. cultural side. You may consider this LARPing, but if it's trained alive I don't see why it's a problem. One of the benefits that these systems have, IMO, is the standing restraints. I have myself used these in a real-life situations, so I know they can work. I would think it would be more preferred to be able to apply a hold/lock to someone without having to take them to the ground first. The problem is the practical techniques get buried beneath the the number of impractical ones.

Also, that's the point of these new forums: to specifically discuss how arts like these can be changed to be more effective, thus getting rid of the BS.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 10:35am

Originally Posted by Wolf

Basically these arts originally tried very hard to do what MMA has accomplished today. Unfortunatly the lack of sparring with any sort of contact or live resistive application of techniques has killed the practicality of these arts. My suggestions...
1) Pare down the curriculum by getting rid of the totally impractical techs
2) At higher belt levels increase contact in sparring and allow throws/takedowns/joint locks
3) Include a live sparring component to advanced belt tests. You don't fight well, you don't promote.
4) The weapons study can remain as long as it doesn't preclude the above.

I understand that bringing about all of these changes is nigh on impossible, but I would love to see some respect get back to these types of arts. What other changes do people see as necessary?

Point 2

Why at higher belts, why not focus early on at haveing people spar with throws and take downs from the get go.

O'soto geri and ich ashi bari are two easy take downs that white belts can learn and perform with relative saftey

Also in Goju-jitsu all belt tests have a sparring and grappling component, You don't have to win but show that you can at least try and apply the appropriate techniques for your level. So why wait for higher belts.

Again it doesn't have to be full / hard contact from the get go, but some continous sparring should be part of testing from the beginning IMO

**G-low** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 12:13pm

Wolf, it seems although the changes you've suggested may be somewhat hard to incorporate into Kuk Sool in it's current state, it may be a good business model for starting a new style. I don't know your current level of training, so I don't know your qualifications for starting a new style, but it is something to think about.

(Or just starting up a club that works off of those principles and incorporating Kuk Sool techniques)

**SpringHeeledJack** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 12:20pm

The first martial art I studied was Kuk Sool. We only did no/light contact sparring. I had no control of my kicks at the time and landed a few head kicks; people quit the place. Later the instructor tried to implement harder sparring (with padding), and almost everyone quit. Just seems to me that so many people involved in this art don't want those kinds of changes. I fear it may be too forgone.

**new2bjj** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 12:27pm

Originally Posted by debul937

The first martial art I studied was Kuk Sool. We only did no/light contact sparring. I had no control of my kicks at the time and landed a few head kicks; people quit the place. Later the instructor tried to implement harder sparring (with padding), and almost everyone quit. Just seems to me that so many people involved in this art don't want those kinds of changes. I fear it may be too forgone.

Your average person does not want to be hit in the face, period. That's why hardcore will never replace McDojo's.

**G-low** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 12:30pm

I think another change that would help would be to incorporate more ground techniques. The basic stuff you learn in Mohk Jo leu Ki, Wah Ki, and Jahp Ki don't really help that much, or may be more effective of a training tool if they incorporated more live sparring with them as you stated before.

**UpaLumpa** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 12:37pm

There cerainly is hope (though KSW and HwrangDo are complete fabrications and the same thing as hapkido anyway). The pro-hapkido circuit demonstrates that. If those tournaments become more common (and more open to other styles, last I looked you had to be a HKD blackbelt) the wheat will start to get seperated from the **** (or however that saying goes).

Right now there are a few schools that seem to do things right but I've seen nothing to indicate they're becoming more common or are common at all.

**UpaLumpa** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 12:39pm

Originally Posted by Wolf

1) Pare down the curriculum by getting rid of the totally impractical techs
2) At higher belt levels increase contact in sparring and allow throws/takedowns/joint locks
3) Include a live sparring component to advanced belt tests. You don't fight well, you don't promote.
4) The weapons study can remain as long as it doesn't preclude the above.

While these sound good, one of the problems is that many of the HKD schools I've been to don't actually know what "live" sparring is. The sparring that is done is far from live.

To me the best way change could come would be through internal pressure to compete in things like pro-hapkido. If competition becomes important, **** will clean itself out fast.