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  1. teebs is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 7:23am


     Style: Shotokan, judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by yodaman
    He makes some decent points (Why would a doctor be moonlighting as a karate instructor) but the slavery to the "Asian Martial arts are the only true Martial arts" cause any of his good points to be flushed down the crapper.
    I don't know about the USA, but I think most martial arts instructors in the UK have a job for income and then run non-profit making clubs. In my home city I can only think of a few clubs with professional instructors and their quality leaves something to be desired. Maybe it's different in the US though.

    Oh and I'm not trying to say that all profit making clubs are bad, just that in the UK they often are beaten by the non-professional ones.
  2. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 10:30am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've spent about a month researching martial arts and finding a program in my area. One of the things that struck me about MOST martial arts schools / programs / clubs is fitness, or rather the lack there of. Every site, and this one exemplifies the trend, talk about what a great work out it is, and how it will get you into shape like no other work out.

    Then you look at the pictures. Many of the kids are visibly overweight. Most of the adults are overweight. Most of the instructors are overweight. And not just a little, but a lot.

    Now, maybe there is no connection between peak fitness and martial arts skill. I'm not qualified to say. I'm out of shape and taking my first lesson on Monday. However, I am qualified to say this. If you are advertising what a great work out your martial arts class is, and what a great tool it is for instilling discipline, why do you look like you don't excercise and can't so no to Little Debbie?

    Its really been a pet peeve of mine how the amount of advertising on the work out a particular school provides is inversely proportional to the fitness level of the instructors.
  3. bodhistate is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 10:45am


     Style: pa-kua

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kendamu
    bodhistate:

    Who is to judge?

    Anyone wanting to study a martial art. Seriously. No judging means blindly walking into crap that really doesn't fit your adgenda.
    Actually I agree with this. The 'judgement call' I (and I believe the other person was referring to) is the one that people make about other arts (and the practitioners of the arts) they don't like; TKD sucks because (fill in the blank) or MMA sucks because (fill in the blank). If you decide that you want to study one art over the others because of whatever reason, that's up to you, regardless of what others have decreed is the purpose of studying MA.
  4. bodhistate is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 10:58am


     Style: pa-kua

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Well you are wrong there buddy.

    This is what they have said about MMA and BJJ since the beginning of said fad. Get your facts straight.
    What, that MMA and BJJ is full of skin-head thugs? I've heard that for years. What of it? I just thinks it's funny that people get all worked up over **** like that.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 11:10am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhistate
    What, that MMA and BJJ is full of skin-head thugs? I've heard that for years. What of it? I just thinks it's funny that people get all worked up over **** like that.
    You are all upset and posting pro-TMA rants. So, hopefully you are laughing at yourself.

    People posting on Bullshido spend most of their time doing the EXACT same trashtalking of every MA style that doesn't hold the same values as MMA and the like do.
    See, TMA did this from the beginning of the BJJ/MMA fad.

    So, I find it funny whem TMAers get all high and mighty when they actually fostered the hatred.

    Even though TMAers always act like they are above such matters.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 4/28/2007 11:14am at .
  6. bodhistate is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 11:17am


     Style: pa-kua

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kingmiracleman
    I apologize if I seemed "self-righteous" or "outraged" ('cuz I wasn't! Srsly.) but I do believe I have the right to be somewhat offended by what the guy said; I find it a bit alarming that you think I basically have no justifiable reason to feel this way, and that I should simply take my "just desserts." I am of the opinion that there is no one set of (seemingly peaceful and non-aggressive) values that martial artists should adhere to, as the author of the article seems to believe. I just don't think that any one man or school should decide what martial arts in general "are all about," or that they should be responsible for instilling "proper" values in other people's children. I think it's disengenuous for the author to preach that martial arts are really about non-violence, and that parents shouldn't take their kids to a place where they might actually get punched or kicked or wrestled by someone else (otherwise it's not "martial" at all). It's his opinion, yes, but it's one with which I wholeheartedly disagree.

    You're right... who is anyone to judge what the "true" values and traditions of martial arts should be? The term "Martial Arts" covers many different styles that encompass many different countries, cultures, and people. No one person should appoint themselves as the defender of nebulous, vaguely Eastern philosophies that play into the stereotypes that many people hold regarding these different martial styles, nor should any one person force these philosophies onto young children. I think it's good for an instructor to tell people to respect and adhere to basic laws of society, but I think it's bad for them to tell people how to run various aspects of their personal lives and to adhere to various ethical principles. I also believe it's wrong for such instructors to claim that they and their students hold moral superiority over the practitioners of Style X simply because they themselves teach and practice Style Y. A lot of people here at Bullshido (including me) rag on a lot of different TMAs for one reason or another, but rarely do we attempt to place ourselves on some sort of moral and ethical plateau.
    But that's the funny thing, stripping MA of any philosophy/ethics/etc is the other side of the coin, and just as extreme. Some arts take this farther than others (the extremely stripped down version offered by MMA to the arts fostered and developed in monasteries). A parent has every right to use whatever tools they want to instill a code of ethics into their children (except in cases that fit the description of child abuse, which a massive grey line as far as I'm concerned). Americans pick and chose what philosophies they want to uphold and defend all the time (part of the joy of living in the USA). We cherry-pick what ideas we want and throw out the others. Adhering to the vaguer ethical codes of fighting has merely discarded more ideas than proposing that MA training is only about defending yourself, which itself sets aside those even further ideas which say an MAist should spend hours in meditation and reflection while being a vegetarian on top of a mountatin. This guy is preaching to the average American who has little to no contact with violence in any sort besides entertainment, and most people who want to put little Timmy in MA don't want him actually getting a broken nose, or busted teeth, or something like that. Right or wrong, he understands his market and who he is targeting. You (and I actually) are not his target, so the pitch is false, flat, and downright dangerous as it creates unrealistic (and in some cases false) expectations about what can happen to an MAist.

    When I look at the arguments made about the purpose/ethics/whatever of MA on BS or by some TMAist site, they both sound like they are coming from, as you put it, "some sort of moral and ehtical plateau." Both groups get upset about getting called out on it (which is normal and allows for some highly entertaining things to happen). Some of the posts in this thread sound like posts I've read on other sites, and thus the humor I see.
  7. ironlurker is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 11:17am


     Style: jkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    I was more offended by his defense of McDojoism as a good sign of a good school, than the ignorant ramblings about thuggish MMAers who just like to bully and beat on others.
    That's a great point, and it came off as pretty cynical to me. Overall it's a highly crafted pitch- notice the common-sense points towards the beginning lead to the propaganda towards the end

    "Whatever you do, DO NOT enroll your child in a school that teaches MMA"
    As earlier noted, this goes well beyond debating the suitability of MMA for kids, saying that any school that includes MMA should be avoided.

    Reality Self Defense was founded in February of 1996, six months after Joe's Pomfret’s honorable discharge from the United States Marine Corps. Reality Self Defense is a clean, modern, and fully matted (1,500 sq. feet of continuous matting) facility that teaches karate and Jiu-Jitsu to children, while teaching Submission wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Karate, and Kickboxing to adults.
    ^This is the school Joe Lauzon is affiliated with. Who do you think is more knowledgeable about self-defense, Ran Zohar or RSD? While things have to be adjusted and stepped down, there's no reason you can't have a children's class that has an informed view about the realities of fighting and doesn't create bad habits or a false sense of security.

    "Dont fall for the old 'we have small classes' as a selling feature"
    Small classes, as with any other single factor, do not necessarily indicate a good school. But giant classes = better? I'd think this could be the case if you're looking for a sparring partner with the same attributes and ability level and you have trouble finding one. Otherwise, this is the most blatant example of selling a McDojo negative as a positive I may have ever seen.

    "Is there a high degree of emphasis placed on competition?"
    Whatever the mertis or demerits of TKD for full-contact fighting or self-defense, there are inummerable formats for TKD competition. Heck, it's an Olympic sport. "Run out," he says, if competition is emphasized by a school. It seems a little incogruous to me that a serious TKD school would downplay competition. Notice Ran Zohar gets the best of both worlds, saying "run out" of the school if it emphasizes competition and trophies, yet throwing in that "we have elite level competitors". Possible translation: we can win big but don't expect your lil' dragon to do so.

    "Does the school offer a 'risk free trial' or better yet a 'guarantee'?"
    He says this is the sign of a good school- a free trial period (in her other pitch, valued at 149$ worth of "free gifts"). Nothing in life is free. There are many good schools in all MA's that do not have free trial periods, because a) they have to pay the bills (as Ran Zohar himself states) and b) they need to maintain a certain level of focus and seriousness.

    "If they charge for your martial arts on a per month basis then you're in the wrong school"
    :cwm10: As stated earlier in the thread, this means that long contracts are good. Now, once again, certain schools, especially with extensive facilities and instructors for different arts, will need contracts for practical reasons. Therefore, while contracts aren't necessarily McDojoism, how can you that say the option of paying by the month is?

    "This can be only one of two things. First, they aren't intending on being around for long. Second, this is just a 'hobby' for them"
    There are good instructors that have other part-time or fulltime jobs. If a school is unwilling to compromise by having a lil' dragons/ninjer program to bring steady cash in, it can have trouble making ends meet. On the other hand, if you don't want your kid to be trained for self-defense, and you don't want them to compete, what are you paying the "full time professional" for?

    "Third and of most concern with a school that charges 'month to month' or 'per session' is that they are not properly set up as a curriculum-driven academy"
    Curriculum-driven here means off-the-shelf box purchased lil' dragons program. Here's the one Ran Zohar uses:

    Century’s Lil’ Dragons’ catches all kids early and helps them develop terrific life skills that will make them not only a better citizen but a healthier one as well. Century, LLC is the world’s largest manufacturer and distributor of martial arts supplies and school curriculum.
    http://www.lildragons.com/listschools.php?state=PA
    Zohar says curriculum is important because most MA teachers don't have the expertise to design one. Again, if they're not teaching your kid self-defense, not training them to compete, and not creating the curriculum, then what are you paying them for? I saw

    "Look for those who run a professional program, and charge a professional fee."
    "Your best clue about their level of professionalism is the tuition rate"
    Tuition and fees are the product of supply and demand. High fees aren't necessarily bad- but if you're paying for BJJ you'll know ASAP if you're getting your money's worth. How do you test if you're getting your money's worth for "professionalism", especially if you're not fighting or competing? Your sensei drives a beamer so he's a good sensei?

    "Winning is by knocking out one's opponent, choking them into unconsciousness, or having them 'tap out' in pain, kind of like saying 'uncle'"
    Sounds pretty nuts to soccer mom who's never watched a MMA match, funny he doesn't point out that the third item in the list allows you to avoid the second.

    I also noted his line about avoiding any instructor who calims to have "tested" his style or tactics in actual fights. The presentation is slick though- he combines typical bullshido claims "did the instructor say he worked for the CIA" with "cage fights" to communicate a message that is nothing less than a statement against pressure testing.

    His wife is a "former Olympic hopeful". "Olympic" MA is a pet peeve of mine. You'd have to know when she was an "Olympic hopeful" to evaluate this. Was it before 1988? And WTF is a "hopeful"? The dictionary says "a person who shows promise or aspires to success."

    Following the recognition of the WTF by the International Olympic Committee in 1980, Taekwondo was staged at the Olympics in Seoul in 1988 and in Barcelona in 1992 as demonstration sport. In 1994, at the Paris 103rd IOC Session, Taekwondo was adopted as an official program of the Sydney 2000 Olympics. Taekwondo was confirmed as an official sport of the 2004 Athens Olympic Games and 2008 Beijing Olympic Games.
    I can find that his wife won a gold medal in nationals one year, and I can't find the year. Maybe she won twice, as he claims, who knows. "Hopeful" seems a little weak to me.

    I'd also be interested to know more about the name change from "All American TKD" to "Personal Power Martial Arts" and the apparent transfer of ownership of the school from him to his wife. Means nothing in itself, but it's interesting.

    I studied karate for several years as a kid/adolescent with a guy who a) had a full time job b) taught in his garage c) had about five or six kids in the class d) took payment by the class. Point-sparring, kata, etc. but I value the experience much more in hindsight after comparing it to some of the nightmares I've read about here, and it shows just how BS these claims of Ran Zohar are.

    I guess the lil' dragons program he uses makes its pitch that it prevents/treats childhood obesity. God forbid you'd take your kid to a nutritionist for their weight, a psychologist for their self-esteem, and a tutor to get them to do better in school. Yeah, those are expensive, but then why spend "professional tuition" in the form of a long-term contract to achieve them with someone who is not qualified in those fields and doesn't even use their own experience? 24hr notice cancellation with the nutritionist/psych and you don't have to pay for the appointment, try that with your professional contract.

    This pitch is to McDojo's what chi-blasts are to bullshido.

    PS- I'm not including this for lulz but WTF is this?

    If you're a non-contact focused TMA school that wants to be "realistic" or dabble in self-defense, get a redman suit. This is garbage, and it's not f'ing "professional."
  8. bodhistate is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 11:26am


     Style: pa-kua

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    You are all upset and posting pro-TMA rants. So, hopefully you are laughing at yourself.
    Oh, I find many things amusing but something like this is hardly upsetting (particularly since I am deriving so much amusement from the entire thing). But where exactly did I say I was pro-TMA (or rather, for the popular Americanized version of MA, since I think that is different from TMA)? I belive I just pointed out that the complaints here are the same as ones TMAists make about the same type of trash talking.

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    See, TMA did this from the beginning of the BJJ/MMA fad.

    So, I find it funny whem TMAers get all high and mighty when they actually fostered the hatred.

    Even though TMAers always act like they are above such matters.
    That's a chicken-and-egg argument which is much older than the current TMA vs MMA. Who cares, and more importantly, what does it matter? Everybody trash-talks.
  9. meataxe is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 11:28am


     Style: Wu style tcc+bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by v1y
    "Words like 'extreme', 'freestyle', 'combat', 'ultimate' or any of those in combination are a strong indication that the style doesn't have a long history or the Asian roots that make martial arts what they are."

    I want to kill myself.
    There was a study that gave ammo to people who believe in this kind of thing. Basically, people who practice "tradional" martial arts are less likely to get into fights than "sport" martial artists. The study actually came under a lot of criticism for being flawed, because participants may essentially self-select their group. IE. the brawler is drawn to boxing while the pacifist is drawn to aikido.

    You tend to hear about the study a lot, but you don't hear much about the criticism.
    :pottytrai

    EDIT: re: "I want to kill myself". Obviously you have some issues. I suggest you study a TMA to calm your inner beast. :sign13:
    Last edited by meataxe; 4/28/2007 11:31am at .
    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
    - Voltaire
  10. ironlurker is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2007 11:49am


     Style: jkd

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhistate
    That's a chicken-and-egg argument which is much older than the current TMA vs MMA. Who cares, and more importantly, what does it matter? Everybody trash-talks.
    First off, it's not about style vs. style so much as verifying easily verifiable claims. If someone claims to be able to fight, they should be able to fight. In this case, if a school claims to be able to teach your children to defend themselves, the instruction should have some grounding in reality.
    Here, there's no knowledge of what Ran Zohar is or isn't teaching, so it could be straight down the middle mainstream legitimate TKD. What is clear is that his "advice" for parents is both self-contradictory and wrong.

    On a side note, there's lots of MMA guys with TMA backgrounds. Joe Pomfret, Lauzon's trainer in the example I cited above of what Ran Zohar retardedly says is a "bad environment for kids", has a Uechi background. Training MMA doesn't necessarily mean you disavow or discount your former TMA like being a former member of the Nazi party or some ****, it means you go outside the box and find out what works and what doesn't, and learn things that are not covered in your original style, rather than pretending that everything works and that all modern grappling is hidden in katas. IMHO it shows more respect to accept something for what it is and know its limitations, then it does to pretend they don't exist.
    (ed.- here I'm just addressing the angst people have who "want to make wing chun/karate etc. work" in the sense of being like MMA, and the debate "it would then be MMA." If you want to, in so many words, do MMA, just do MMA, and say you do MMA and you have a background in whatever TMA. I don't get the hang up like it means renouncing your family/religion/citizenship or something.)

    So, just again, this isn't about OMG tkd trash talk -although, yeah, calling people "skinhead bikers" is trash talk, a lot more than making fun of goofy performance katas with no applications- as much as it is that Ran Zohar is speaking textbook McDojo.
    Last edited by ironlurker; 4/28/2007 12:09pm at .
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