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  1. rangerdavy is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2007 11:19pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Red Elvis is completely right, and I misspoke. You shouldn't always be extremely close, but a very common sign of poor weapons work is never being in that intimate range. The list he gave is a perfect checklist for what to look for.

    Also, not to be presumptuous, but when Red Elvis said mismatched weapons, I believe he was referring to any weapons that aren't matched (imagine that). Your longpole idea was the right idea, but not something that would ever be commonly drilled. A perfect example would be a standard rattan versus someone with a knife, say. Not everyone is armed equally, and that's what makes violence interesting.

    Lastly, Kali has a whole set of unarmed techniques, which cover every level of combat, and all of the ranges (within which you can fight unarmed, of course).
  2. Chili Pepper is online now
    Chili Pepper's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2007 9:14am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Elvis
    Look for a school with:

    Pressure testing
    Excellent Footwork
    Footwork with the ability to strike while moving. FLUIDLY.
    Use of multiple ranges
    Use of various weapons and empty hand
    Open mindedness to other styles and influences
    Understanding of clinch range, takedowns, grappling and their application with and without weapons.
    Realistic approaches to real world scenarios.
    Use of matched and unmatched weapons.
    Red Elvis has punyo'ed the correct.

    My meagre contributions would include:
    - a school that teaches both kempo and fma generally sucks (don't ask me why, that's just what I've found)
    - FMA is typically informal - the more trappings and rituals, the suckier the instruction
    - if the students grip the stick leaving a long punyo (the butt of the stick, coming out from the pinky-side of the fist), then they emphasize tapi-tapi in their practice and should be avoided.
  3. X_plosion is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2007 9:48am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the instructor gets all glassy eyed while droning on and on about Filipino history and spouting about how his system was used to beat up Spanish, American and Japanese soldiers, then you are probably dealing with a liar or an ignoramus.

    These big mouth types also tend to have poor martial skills.
  4. Epa is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2007 10:20am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think it matters whether an instructor includes some Filipino history or culture in their teaching. Both Dan Inosanto and Leo Gaje spend at least some time in each seminar talking about that and no one that's trained with either of them would say they have "poor martial skills" or are "liars or ignorant." Someone's interest in or knowledge of history is not related to their ability to fight or to train others to fight.

    When deciding whether a school is teaching worthwhile skills, you need to look out how they train. Red Elvis already gave a good list of things to look for in the instructors and students. Sure there are going to be some people that talk about how FMA is deadly because it was used in the past. That's no different than a lot of claims from different martial arts, but it's pretty easy to tell when someone is full of it. All you need to do is watch them train or spar or better yet spar with them.
  5. Thaiboxerken is offline
    Thaiboxerken's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2007 1:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ma1234

    Thaiboxerken: Should it have a good MMA program, even though I don't want to train MMA?
    Yes.

    Surely a school can teach great weapons-based stuff without even being trained in anything MMA-ish.
    Maybe, but it's very rare.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  6. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2007 1:14am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ma1234
    That makes sense, since I would assume that having a chunk o' wood in you hand would change the range at which you engaged the person you were dealing with.

    Also...Kali has grappling? This is something I didn't know.
    In various styles to various degrees. Some styles will just have akido-like sets of locks with a few takedowns, some (like pekiti, sayoc, insoanto/lacoste), will have essentially a full-on greco-style clinch curriculum, with some basic groundwork and submissions/joint destructions.
  7. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2007 1:20am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ma1234
    Thanks for your response, Red Elvis. Most of it makes a lot of sense, and I think that as a non-practitioner I will be able to see. For example, anyone who has trained knows what multiple ranges, realism and application-oriented approaches look like in a training environment.

    I'm a little uncertain about a couple of the things you said. Specifically, the issue with the footwork. Now I know what good wing chun footwork looks like (no, that's not an oxymoron), but I have no idea what good kali footwork would look like. Is it just looking for the basics: balance, fluidity, good transfer, quick responsiveness, solid base, or are there other specific techniques that I should be looking to see if they're using (such as the circle steps that you see in a lot of MA) or not using (the ugly stylized stepping of bad wing chun, for example).

    Also, when you talk about matched and unmatched weapons, I assume you're talking about situations where subject A is using an short stick, and subject B is using a longpole, and that sort of situation?
    Features of good kali footwork would include

    - lots of angling off of the line of attack
    - specifically, triangular footwork
    - Moving into and ot of range during any drills
    - sidestepping and rotating the hips offline when a drill includes a thrusting attack with blade or stick.
    - generally light on the feet, rather than completely flat footed
    - No "stancework" to speak of.
    - people aren't using different body mechanics when they drill from when they fight.
  8. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2007 1:21am

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thaiboxerken: Should it have a good MMA program, even though I don't want to train MMA? Surely a school can teach great weapons-based stuff without even being trained in anything MMA-ish.
    L O L
  9. X_plosion is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2007 11:29am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Epa
    I don't think it matters whether an instructor includes some Filipino history or culture in their teaching. Both Dan Inosanto and Leo Gaje spend at least some time in each seminar talking about that and no one that's trained with either of them would say they have "poor martial skills" or are "liars or ignorant." Someone's interest in or knowledge of history is not related to their ability to fight or to train others to fight.

    When deciding whether a school is teaching worthwhile skills, you need to look out how they train. Red Elvis already gave a good list of things to look for in the instructors and students. Sure there are going to be some people that talk about how FMA is deadly because it was used in the past. That's no different than a lot of claims from different martial arts, but it's pretty easy to tell when someone is full of it. All you need to do is watch them train or spar or better yet spar with them.
    What I'm talking about is those instructors who try to cover poor skills/teaching behind a smokescreen of pseudo history. That is what I wanted to say to the OP. There are lots of these people around and their "sales talk" tends to suck people in, especially beginners. This is something that a prospective student needs to be aware of.

    It's quite a stretch to infer from my post that I'm saying that Dan Inosanto fits in this mold.
    In my post, there is nothing that states that I oppose teaching history per se. Nor did I mention anyone specifically or throw hints around. What I'm warning against is liars who can't back their talk up and thus fleece their students in the process.
  10. Question! is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2007 3:46pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Chili Pepper, what would you consider to be a long punyo?
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