Investigating Master S.C. Ray of the St. Louis Martial Arts Center

**NoFear900** · Posted On: 2/05/2009 12:47pm

Hey! "Mr. Shmuley!"
i can't seem to get the info to pass onto the forum correctly.....I am going to PM you my email and if you could give me your email so i can send you the scanned pics and info...I am going to get the Ray Break dancing vids from THellerich sometime this week.

**omoplatypus** · Posted On: 2/05/2009 1:31pm

i wonder if ray's new status has anything to do with a certain call from the federal trade commission.

i really feel bad for the people that attend his church. they all looked like lower income people living in a shitty part of north st. louis county that really didn't need to be giving a mcdojo owner any tithing money. but, they were happy at church doing their singing and dancing to a big screen tv. the woman that talked with nofear and i was very happy we came in and asked us many times if we wanted to stay for church.

the saddest part though, the dojo was relativly well outfitted. the mats were nice. the heavy bags and striking pads looked like new. the walls were all freshly painted (no scuff marks that i saw). he had a HUGE mirrored wall. the list goes on. you get the point, it was a very nice dojo, boardering on posh.
the worship center across the hall though...... the carptes were dirty and old. the walls needed paint, (or at least a very thorough cleaning). the christmas decorations looked 10 years old and worn out. the chairs were uncomfortable. and the over all decor was just tacky.

to me, this tells me exactly who stephen k. ray worships. (hint, it ain't jesus)

**BackFistMonkey** · Posted On: 2/05/2009 7:58pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Well, it looks like God destroyed his questionable Martial Arts practice.

God works in mysterious ways.

If he is still pretending to teach any martial art and mantains a base of students which either donate or pay Mr. S.C. Ray to teach them M.A. in any form it is not over nor "destroyed" .

... but alas yes the Lord God Almighty , his Holy Son and yes even the Holy Ghost work in mysterious ways ...

...

or something ... I really don't know much of anything except that punching and kicking people brings me inner peace and and a feeling of oneness with the human race ... I also happen to know that Mr. Ray is completely opposed to such ancient concepts of martial arts and humanitized spiritualiality .

... but that discussion is for when Mr. Ray grows some balls and actually steps up to answer the questions posed previously and is willing to discuss the world with people who excist outside his little bubble of influence and "yes people" .

Originally Posted by white_kimbo

i wonder if ray's new status has anything to do with a certain call from the federal trade commission.

i really feel bad for the people that attend his church. they all looked like lower income people living in a shitty part of north st. louis county that really didn't need to be giving a mcdojo owner any tithing money. but, they were happy at church doing their singing and dancing to a big screen tv. the woman that talked with nofear and i was very happy we came in and asked us many times if we wanted to stay for church.

the saddest part though, the dojo was relativly well outfitted. the mats were nice. the heavy bags and striking pads looked like new. the walls were all freshly painted (no scuff marks that i saw). he had a HUGE mirrored wall. the list goes on. you get the point, it was a very nice dojo, boardering on posh.
the worship center across the hall though...... the carptes were dirty and old. the walls needed paint, (or at least a very thorough cleaning). the christmas decorations looked 10 years old and worn out. the chairs were uncomfortable. and the over all decor was just tacky.

to me, this tells me exactly who stephen k. ray worships. (hint, it ain't jesus)

I would not attack his religious views nor would I even vaguely insinuate he is worshipping anyone or anything besides what he claims . I would discuss them with him . Saying he isn't worshipping Jesus is a whole lot like saying he is worshipping Satan , which is clearly not his intention in this ... tho his actions may speak differently when carefully and critically observed .

Mr Ray's heart may actually be pointing in the right general direction , no doubt something screwy is going on in his school , but that is no reason to insinuate or seem to insuniate such things .

**chalkieusa** · Posted On: 2/05/2009 8:34pm

We jad one of these jokers in our area (Baltimore, Maryland) that used to run around the local sport karate tournament circuit. In fact, I never even saw this "Doctor" once in any kind of a martial arts uniform of any kind. And his support "staff" consisted of an all girl group that passed out fliers for his tournaments and his church. The leader of the girl group was usually scantily clad African American woman who even tried to pass herself off as a "professional model".

This guy tried to host a few tournaments himself, and lost money big time, once everyone else figured out the game he was running. Any money that he generated went to his "church".

He's still active in the local area church-wise, but so far as the martial arts is concerned, he gave that up once it dried up for him cashwise.

**omoplatypus** · Posted On: 2/05/2009 8:49pm

i was insinuating that he would rather build a shrine to himself and his brand of ma than have a decent place to worship. everything in that store front, and i do mean everything, pointed to give me money. as opposed to, lets fellowship with christ and learn to kick faces.

hell, nofear even told me that his old vanity plate said "tithe". the dude isn't affiliated with a larger denomination. all the tithe money he would get goes to himself and his school/church.

i moved to st. louis from the deep south, and i have seen many many christian hucksters come and go. every year, back home, 4 or 5 people would come in with a "revival" and clean out hundreds of families with their phony religiosity.

while i am not a christian, i do respect people who are. i view christianity as a very noble religion and will never attack someone i feel is truly acting in the interest of promoting christ like peace and love. i enjoy debating with and learning from christians. "master" ray's whole operation stinks of the american green back being more important than any christ, no matter what name you give him.

do i feel that you have to have a beautiful and ornate place to worship? absolutly not. my synagogue is a storefront that isn't all that great. it used to be in a basement. but, it's how much money he is fleecing from these people and then building a dojo that is as nice as i could ever ask for (minus a boxing ring) with the top of the line, newest and best gear, and in the same building ask people to sit in rickety uncomfortable chairs in a room that is just dirty while watching a freakin DVD of another church's service to worship.

there were obviously less fortunate people all gathering for what should be a beautiful activity, and instead of doing anything for them, he was looking for even more handouts.

i'm glad he wasn't there that day. i don't know if i could have remained composed after seeing what i saw.
it all looked like the same **** i saw year after year after year back home, the only difference was, this had a karate theme to it.

**Cougar Spirit** · Posted On: 2/06/2009 8:01am

Man, that's totally messed up. Too bad there isn't something we could do to stop that kind of thing. Someone might actually take this guy as a martial artist.

**dewey** · Posted On: 2/06/2009 12:32pm

Well, what we're seeing going on here is a sterling example of a martial arts cult:

instructor who deliberately involves himself in the personal lives of his students (i.e. blurring the lines between martial arts & religion)
instructor who demands his students conform their personal religious beliefs to his own (i.e. so-called "Christian martial arts ministry") http://stlouismartialartscenter.com/.../statement.php http://stlouismartialartscenter.com/...ven/heaven.php
demands of loyality...enforced via a contract (http://stlouismartialartscenter.com/html/faq/faq.php), cut-n-pasted from FAQ:

Q. Why do I have to sign a contract?
A: God is a God of covenant promises and we should be too. If we make a commitment to God and default on our vows then we will have to suffer the consequences. We need to make a commitment because God believes in commitment. Without a commitment there will be no success in anything we do.

Q: What must I do if I want to cancel my contract?
A: We do NOT honor cancellations due to laziness, lack of dedication or loss of interest. The following are accepted cancellations:

Mental or Physical Disability with a doctor's note.
You move more than 25 miles away from our school.

NOTE: If you have a financial crisis, we really want to help you in your situation without being unfair to the other students and without breaking our policies. If a hardship occurs speak to Master Ray to work out a solution. (Please remember we are not obligated to cancel your contract due to financial difficulties. We all have financial difficulties, but we must make decisions that offer a win, win, win situation for everyone. We are sure we can find a solution.)

------------------------

'nuf said. This is a martial arts cult.

**NoFear900** · Posted On: 2/06/2009 2:21pm

Originally Posted by Cougar Spirit

Man, that's totally messed up. Too bad there isn't something we could do to stop that kind of thing. Someone might actually take this guy as a martial artist.

But you see this is what makes investigating so much fun.... there is something we can do. The best way to do it is to keep makeing reports of his faultyness to org's such the FTC, IRS, BBB etc. eventually someone willl seee the problem and handle .

Worst or.....actually best case scenario.....we get a News station involved.
Anyone have connections in the brodcasting buisness that could get word out about Ray?
TV or raido would be perfect. Both would be amazing!:new_shock

**matt.m** · Posted On: 2/06/2009 2:23pm

Yep,

It is a straight up cult. At first I thought "Man, let the people train and be happy. No matter how jacked up it may be." I went once and all I heard was "Master Ray" blah, blah, blah.

Guys I have a dad that is a hapkido 6th dan. I have been around martial arts since the 70's, I know the culture. However, and I mean this with all sincerity......I saw the "Worship" room and then the "Gym" area. I listened to these people, oh boy. I took a minister friend of mine and he was appalled at what he had saw and heard. My pal actually considered Ray like the next Jim Jones and Jonestown religious cult kind of stuff.

I don't recommend this school to anyone. I have seen "Christian" Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Martial Arts, whatever. Everything I had seen kept a seperation between M.A. and God.
I just don't subscribe to cults, they are wrong.......

**chalkieusa** · Posted On: 2/06/2009 2:38pm

Originally Posted by dewey

Well, what we're seeing going on here is a sterling example of a martial arts cult:

instructor who deliberately involves himself in the personal lives of his students (i.e. blurring the lines between martial arts & religion)
instructor who demands his students conform their personal religious beliefs to his own (i.e. so-called "Christian martial arts ministry") http://stlouismartialartscenter.com/.../statement.php http://stlouismartialartscenter.com/...ven/heaven.php
demands of loyality...enforced via a contract (http://stlouismartialartscenter.com/html/faq/faq.php), cut-n-pasted from FAQ:

Q. Why do I have to sign a contract?
A: God is a God of covenant promises and we should be too. If we make a commitment to God and default on our vows then we will have to suffer the consequences. We need to make a commitment because God believes in commitment. Without a commitment there will be no success in anything we do.

Q: What must I do if I want to cancel my contract?
A: We do NOT honor cancellations due to laziness, lack of dedication or loss of interest. The following are accepted cancellations:

Mental or Physical Disability with a doctor's note.
You move more than 25 miles away from our school.

NOTE: If you have a financial crisis, we really want to help you in your situation without being unfair to the other students and without breaking our policies. If a hardship occurs speak to Master Ray to work out a solution. (Please remember we are not obligated to cancel your contract due to financial difficulties. We all have financial difficulties, but we must make decisions that offer a win, win, win situation for everyone. We are sure we can find a solution.)

------------------------

'nuf said. This is a martial arts cult.

Please tell me you made this up! Damn, doesn't someone that can do something about this clown see this for what it is?