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  1. DuckofDeath is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 12:28pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    I think I read that it takes a 3rd degree black to award a black.
    Bingo! Robson--who was a nobody a couple years ago--is now a third degree black belt who can award (or sell) rank on up to black belt.

    Tread lightly here DoD. This type of unsubstantiated speculation could derail what has thus far been a good investigatory breakdown.
    I was treading lightly. Nothing seems to make sense here motive-wise, so I was brainstorming some more possibilities to be excluded or considered.
  2. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 12:57pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by duckII
    My source from Rat Pack is adament that the only $$ which ever changed hands between Rat Pack and Santos was a stanard monthly association fee, between Rat Pack and Rigan was a standard seminar fee and between Rat Pack and Mansor was, again, one standard seminar fee.

    Assuming this is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, it blows the whole "deep war chest" theory out of the water.

    I did ask him if any $$ changed hands directly between Robson and any of those mentioned above and he indicated that none to his knowledge but clarified that he was not privy to the majority of their conversations with Robson which either took place outside of his presence or, if he was there, were conducted in potugese.
    Your source from Rat Pack also posted on the Atama thread that RPFS did not pay for the letters either. I think he's on the level and is being truthful with us. In the beginning, however, it did appear that RPFS might have been grooming its own in-house fake BB, and if big names were to be bribed in the undertaking it would have taken a deep war chest rather than a shallow war chest. Even then, though, I marveled at the thought of three--three!--big names being caught up in a bribery scandal. The bribery scenario would have made more sense if it involved a single, lesser-known Nigue-like character instead of three prominent names. At any rate though, it now appears that Robson's handlers at RPFS were not the masterminds behind some plot to promote Robson, but were rather victims of Robson's chicanery.
  3. datdamnmachine is offline
    datdamnmachine's Avatar

    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 1:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DuckofDeath
    Bingo! Robson--who was a nobody a couple years ago--is now a third degree black belt who can award (or sell) rank on up to black belt.
    Depends on the organization. And it seems that there is some conflict there as well. For example:

    http://www.graciebarra.com/elinks.htm

    Students Belt Graduation:

    Only 3rd Degree Black Belt representatives are eligible to promote students to the Black Belt.
    Black Belt Representatives up to the 3rd degree are eligible to promote students up to brown belt 4 stripes.
    But...

    http://www.ibjjf.org/graduation.htm

    FOURTH CHAPTER

    Instructors allowed to give grades

    The membership form of an athlete graded in the following belts: grey, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple and brown must be signed by a black belt instructor who is certified by the IBJJF (with the exception of a few countries fifth chapter)

    The membership form of an athlete graded black belt must be signed by a black belt instructor no lower than 2nd degree who is certified by the IBJJF.
    Wierd that Gracie Barra and the IBJJF have different sets of rules even though they were both started by Carlos Gracie, Jr.

    One example that is different then is the way SBGi does it:

    http://www.straightblastgym.com/bjjtesting.htm

    In the Brazilian system once you are a black belt you receive a stripe every three Years provided you are coaching, or competing during that time. To award a black belt yourself you will have to be black one stripe.
    Even from those examples, the general concensus is that you would need to have some time in the black belt rank to rank others to black. I would guess this is to ensure some measure of quality control in who recieves a black belt. It is relavent in the sense that if Robson we have information about Robson recieving the 2nd and 3rd degrees, but not the initial black or 1st degree. This could have something to do with how it could be done in Brazil; i.e., when you get your black, you get your 1st degree. This would have to be confirmed however.
  4. Arclight is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 5:53pm


     Style: random

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please, this guy is full of horse puckey. I offer that the similarity between the bullsheeeet Mauricio Sakata and REAL Carlson BB Mario "Sukata" Neto is no accident, and that any endorsements of Robson by legit BB's or their orgs is a direct result of confusion over this.

    DOD has mentioned this before on the OG but it probably bears repeating. How many times can this guy come up with names in his training history that are damn near impossible to verify at all, but somehow are very close to the names of real black belts, before it stinks to high heaven?

    "One of the other people whom Robson supposedly trained under was Marco "Macaco" Aurelio, a name suspiciously similar to known BJJer Marcus "Maximus" Aurelio of the American Top Team. "
  5. Arclight is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 5:55pm


     Style: random

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also no matter how out of practice a black may be, unless he is crippled or was locked in a hole for 10 years since he last trained BJJ, there is no way he should get consistently gangraped on the mat by an assortment of legit whites and blues.
  6. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 9:57pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight
    Also no matter how out of practice a black may be, unless he is crippled or was locked in a hole for 10 years since he last trained BJJ, there is no way he should get consistently gangraped on the mat by an assortment of legit whites and blues.
    Maybe I missed something in the other thread. Was Robson tapped by Whites and Blues?
  7. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 11:50pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine
    This could have something to do with how it could be done in Brazil; i.e., when you get your black, you get your 1st degree. This would have to be confirmed however.
    According to an article on ranking that used to be up on bjj.org, there was a ranking system where the plain black belt was considered the 1st degree, and during the awarding of the second degree two stripes were put on the belt. According to the info we have, Marcos and Rigan recognized Robson's rank of black belt supposedly earned in 1994 and then awarded the second degree. Robson's pics on the RPFS site at first showed him with just a plain BB; after his promotion by Marcos and Rigan, he sported two stripes. I don't recall ever seeing a picture of him with a single stripe.
  8. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 11:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The idea that only a 3rd Degree black belt can award someone else a black belt irks me. Not that I want to be awarding other people black belts, but can you imagine saying to Mario Sperry (4 time world Champion) or Murilo Bustamante "Sorry, you're not qualified to award someone a black belt"? It seems to me to be well-intentioned, however it doesn't account for people like Sperry or other members of BTT who weren't awarded higher grades because they split from Carlson.
  9. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 12:29am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight
    I offer that the similarity between the bullsheeeet Mauricio Sakata and REAL Carlson BB Mario "Sukata" Neto is no accident, and that any endorsements of Robson by legit BB's or their orgs is a direct result of confusion over this.
    Mario "Sukata" Neto was listed as Mario Sukata on the now defunct bjj.org and was identified as a Carlson Sr. BB. Actually, Mario got his BB under Gutenberg Mello, who is on the list of official Carlson Sr. BBs. According to Mario, Carlson later signed his diploma when Mario moved to Rio. Here's an OTM interview where Mario talks about his lineage:

    http://www.onthemat.com/articles/IN_...6_15_2006.html

    That Arclight is probably correct about the similarity of the names being no accident is borne out by the following email of March 24, 2006 by Kevin Wind, Sr., who heads one of Grandmaster Mansor's Kioto BJJ schools:

    "Thank you for your concern and the heads up! The person who is trying to dispute Robson's lineage obviously has a problem. The Grand Master does know Mauricio and he is a legitimate black belt under Master Carlson. The lineage is shown on the BJJ.org website. The name is misspelled on the website which is not the fault of Robson it is the fault of the person who put the info on the site so they should perhaps contact him webmaster@bjj.org....Master Mansor must have misunderstood the phone call in question, but he does know Mauricio Sakata!"

    The "phone call in question" refers to my phone call to the Grandmaster in which he told me that he did know Mario Sukata--and pointed out that he came from northeast Brazil--but that he didn't know any Mauricio Sakata.
  10. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 12:40am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight
    DOD has mentioned this before on the OG but it probably bears repeating. How many times can this guy come up with names in his training history that are damn near impossible to verify at all, but somehow are very close to the names of real black belts, before it stinks to high heaven?

    "One of the other people whom Robson supposedly trained under was Marco "Macaco" Aurelio, a name suspiciously similar to known BJJer Marcus "Maximus" Aurelio of the American Top Team. "
    After having had bullshit called on Marco "Macaco" Aurelio, Robson dropped the Marco and the Aurelio and now simply lists "Macaco" as one of those under whom he has trained.

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