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  1. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 1:43am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    It often is the style and NOT the individual

    Ok here's my second crack at a sticky. Been seeing this crap on other forums quite a bit, and I feel it's another major part of the crux of the problem of BS being spread under false guises.

    A common misnomer is the phrase, "It's not the style, but the individual!" To be quite honest this a fair and accurate statement most of the time. When fighting or competing, it's not the style that the individual trained in that wins or loses the fight, it's the fighter, plain and simple. Many factors go into determining the outcome of a fight, but in the end the conclusion is a direct result of the decisions the combatants made.

    Now with that said, should we now accept all styles of martial arts to be effective, and failure by its practitioners should only account for the merit of the individual and not reflect on the style itself? Heck no! If that were the case, then I could just open a school that teaches Irish step dancing, call it martial arts, and when my students lose I could just cop out on that old cliché.

    So the question comes down to, how do we tell the difference? How do we know when someone is abusing a catchphrase and when someone is using it properly? Well I'll tell you, it comes down to preparation. No two ways about it. If your style of choice does not prepare you for the realities of what you will encounter, then it is now not the failure of the individual, but rather the onus of ability lies on the style itself.

    Think about it. If I claimed to teach you to play chess, but then taught you how to play checkers (which looks kinda like chess) and you lost chess match after chess match, is it your fault for not being good enough to pick up on the game that you are not accustomed to, or my fault for not giving you the tools necessary to succeed? I think the answer's pretty clear.

    The tricky part here is that in todays world, especially in MMA, no one style reigns supreme. Different styles give you different pieces that work together to create an individuals overall fight game. To stick with the chess/checker analogy, with a chess game equalling fighting, I'd say each "GOOD" style offers a student to utilize a certain piece on the board. It's possible to win without knowing how a certain piece moves that well, but it's best to know them all pretty solidly so you know what to look out for. Styles that those of Bullshido consider bunk/useless I would say are much better suited for a checkers board away from the realities of chess.

    In summation if you've somehow missed the message of this thread until this point, the "it's the individual not the style" argument is grossly abused and taken out of context. It IS the style's fault if the style doesn't account to prepare the individual for what they will encounter. If a style claims to give you the ability to achieve certain goals, and its practitioners consistently fall short of accomplishing those goals due to lack of knowledge of the situation they are engaging in, then it is a fair assumption that in that case it is not the individual that is lacking, but rather their style of choice.
    Last edited by Ke?poFist; 4/13/2007 1:45am at .
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 2:03am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spartan6
    Poor post because you didn't make the point clear in an abstract or introduction.

    Im still hazy about the point of this post.
    I'm open for criticism, and am more than willing to reword/rewrite it, but.....what? I didn't make the point clear enough? Should I have a blatant thesis statement in the introduction like, "Not all styles are good or equal, and no matter how hard you train in them if they don't give you tools useful in fighting you'll never be able to fight?"

    I can't think of a way to put it all in a nutshell, hence the article form of it rather than a few cute one-liners. I even used an analogy I feel solid using if anyone were to try and engage me in a game of words using that comparison.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. JKDChick is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 2:14am

    staff
     Style: JKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A great individual will be made better in a good style ... and less great in a bad one. a sub-par fighter will be utterly useless in bad style, and capable in a good one, if they put in the work. All styles are not equal; this is the reason we get accused of being bjj nutriders so often. It's BETTER.

    The crux is that a great fighter will be able to take MORE of what works from a shitty style than a bad fighter. I was a bad fighter in TKD ... now, in a good style that uses alive methods and rewards hard work, I am a decent journeyman. Will I ever be Bruce Lee? No, but i'm a few steps closer in a good style.

    That being said, I'm pretty sure Asia would still be able to kick a lot of ass using Karate.
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
  4. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 2:32am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Holy crap I'm back in English class!

    I actually write asking questions intentionally to help augment my point. It's one thing to lecture, it's quite another to cause them to question the merits of my or their argument. I choose to write in an argumentative fashion because this is a discussion board, and the article is designed not really as a magazine article but moreso as an editorial if you were to put it in mag.

    If you can think of a better thesis statement than that piss-poor one I threw up there, I'd really appreciate it. I can't really think of a way to combine my entire point into one sentence, beyond the title of the thread, which I think sets the tone and direction well enough.

    As for references, this is a discussion board that is full of references. I could cite the historical evolution of MMA and martial arts in general, but I feel that would be adding too much clutter distracting from the point at hand, and would end up derailing the thread. If one were to contest my statements as mere opinion, then that would happen within the followup discussion on this thread, and there the facts would come out.

    Thanks for the compliment of my analogy btw, and thanks for your criticism :)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  5. ScyberMonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 2:37am


     Style: Way of the Void

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Personally, I feel it is less the style, and more the instructor. The preparation of the student is based entirely (we are, for the moment, ignoring home and cross training) on the preparation techniques of the instructor. You can have two teachers teaching the exact same style, and one instructor prepares his students far better, by training harder, more often, and what have you, and the other is a slackjawed idiot who can only go through the motions. One style, two instructors, two different types of student. Furthermore, if you have a lazy, jackass instructor, he is more than likely going to turn out lazy, jackass students, who do not push themelves as hard as they should, because that is what they have been taught.

    So really, by and large, it all translates back to the instructor. Thinking of them as a font of water....good water refreshes the body and spirit, clenses the internals, and strengthens the individual, whereas a poisoned well....well, it kills you.

    Or at least gives you the runs.

    And no one wants a spotty gi.
  6. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 2:43am

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ScyberMonk
    Personally, I feel it is less the style, and more the instructor. The preparation of the student is based entirely (we are, for the moment, ignoring home and cross training) on the preparation techniques of the instructor. You can have two teachers teaching the exact same style, and one instructor prepares his students far better, by training harder, more often, and what have you, and the other is a slackjawed idiot who can only go through the motions. One style, two instructors, two different types of student. Furthermore, if you have a lazy, jackass instructor, he is more than likely going to turn out lazy, jackass students, who do not push themelves as hard as they should, because that is what they have been taught.

    So really, by and large, it all translates back to the instructor. Thinking of them as a font of water....good water refreshes the body and spirit, clenses the internals, and strengthens the individual, whereas a poisoned well....well, it kills you.

    Or at least gives you the runs.

    And no one wants a spotty gi.
    Very good point. I was planning on at least alluding to that issue, but I felt if I did I'd end up going off on another tangent. Wanted to keep it concise to the issue of style vs individual. Perhaps tomorrow when I wake up I'll have my head on straight and I'll figure out a way to add at least something in there to make that clear.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  7. TheBullshid0zer is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 2:53am


     Style: Kickboxing, Boxing, Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's BOTH the style and the fighter.
  8. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 4:17am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I very much lean towards the student and instructor being the real key to the equation. As with any training/practice towards a goal, there is always a good and bad way to go about things, or bad/better/best. The fact is that training to fight without hitting anything is a bad way.

    I also think that students should push not only themselves, but also their instructors. I think the hallmark of poor instruction is instructors not taking time to explain things, and not willing or not being able to modify techniques or explainations for thier students (as an example, last night in BJJ we were doing a throw and then moving in for an armbar, and I was working with a guy who was about a foot taller than me, so I was having trouble controlling his landing in order to get the armbar on quickly...long story short the instructor had me try a few things and it got sorted out).
  9. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 4:55am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He's right the "INTSITI" catchphrase is abused to cover for the lack of performance of certain styles. I think it's the art AND the individual. What makes a good fighter is the same thing that makes a good athlete. Conditioning and skill. What makes a good combat athlete? Same thing. What makes someone better on t3h str33t? The same thing, provided we aren't talking about gangs that ambush you from behind with baseball bats while your feet are stuck in quicksand.

    But what's "the art"? In this analysis? An "art" or "style" is a collection of techniques and methods for training them. I get what you're saying about checker and chess, but I would use a different analogy because checkers actually works. I prefer something like skipping in a 100 meter sprint. Skipping will never be as fast as sprinting because of physics and biomechanics. A martial art that says to keep your hands in a silly position, chamber your punches, get down low in a silly posture is never going to be as good as boxing. Don't keep your hands up = get hit in the head. Plain and simple. If you have craptacular techniques and you train with kata, well, you might as well not train at all. I can't tell the difference between "no training" and most "TMA"s when it comes to alive video footage.

    Some training methods ARE better than others. Take one rugby team and get them to do tai-chi for conditioning and get another to do resistance training, plyometrics, power training then you will see a significant difference. On the one hand you have styles that have nothing to do with real fighting and on the other you have styles that are more specific to a self-defense situation.

    PS: If it was the individual and not the art then you would expect MMA to still be composed of tough-guys from all styles. It isn't, and hasn't been for about a decade.
  10. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 5:51am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDChick
    All styles are not equal; this is the reason we get accused of being bjj nutriders so often. It's BETTER.

    I disagree.

    I feel that it is the TRAINING methodology that makes arts like BJJ better.
    Apply that same training methodology to TKD, Karate, Kung Fu, and you would have better stand up fighters.

    People often ASSUME that BJJ is BETTER because BJJ people often do well in matches.

    BJJ teaches you to take a striker out of his element and negate his skill set. Great principle. Couple that with realistic training and WHAMMO youve got a person fairly capable of defending themselves against the average Joe.

    Teach a Karate guy the SAME way [idea of training/live sparring/realistic attacks] and teach him to keep a fight standing, (thus taking the fight out of the BJJ guys element) and WHAMMO, you will have a person capable of defending themselves against the average Joe.

    I feel that BJJ has the advantage because 90% of the REAL fights I have been in have at least gone to a clinch style match. Very few went to the ground, simply because of pure luck, or the fact that neither fighter took it there intentionally.
    Its easier to take a fight to the ground than it is to keep it standing. This gives BJJ training an advantage yes, does it make it BETTER? No [IMO]

    You cant say that BJJ is BETTER, because it isnt. The training methodology is BETTER. If BJJ were better than other arts, then you would see PURE grapplers winning in MMA style competitions a great percentage of the time.
    You dont see this, however. You see WELL ROUNDED fighters winning.
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