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  1. Don Gwinn is online now
    Don Gwinn's Avatar

    BJJ wins again!

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    Virden, IL
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    Posted On:
    4/12/2007 12:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, that long explanation that all business everywhere is deceptive and unethical cuts no ice with me. It may be true that there's a market for the deceptive (Well, OK, there's definitely a market for it) but that doesn't mean that's the only market available. These people are making a choice to pretend that their videos are instructor training.
    That's dishonest. Being in business or making a buck aren't valid excuses.
    *********************************************
  2. Poo-Jitsu is offline
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    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2007 1:34pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GCL1
    You're right. But you're also wrong.

    You're right, because as a consumer you're not getting what you think you paid for: quality instruction. But you're also wrong, because the underlying essence of all business is opportunism or "seizing the moment" to maximize profit by any means necessary. Sad, but true. This is the problem, as applied to martial arts, that gave birth to this site, right?

    It is rare that the words "business" and "ethics" appear in the same sentence, since the majority of the most successful business models are based upon deception to some degree. I learned this as a personal trainer working in a big, corporate-owned health club. We were given a script to memorize and recite to potential clients (under pain of being fired), plus a set of answers for if they weren't going for it; not much different than selling Amway, used cars, or real estate.

    Yeah, it's messed up; but if we left potential clients to their own devices, they would realize that losing weight or learning something new requires major changes in mentality and lifestyle, and they would leave,...and we would starve. "Too much work! I want results NOW!", they would exclaim. Fitness (or martial arts) isn't like sitting in a chair and getting your haircut, getting your nails done, or getting a tattoo, despite what some folks may tell you.

    What's even worse is that the scripts ("overcoming objections", and "closing techniques") actually work 60% of the time, if you can keep a straight face and present yourself as 'believable'!

    I no longer work in a health club chain, since I can't help but tell the public (and management) the truth: "fitness requires work, and if you want me to help you know that only the serious need apply", "I do not work for free, my people did for over 400 years, and I refuse to repeat that history", "most of the supplements on the market do nothing but drain your bank account (and may even make you sick)", and "I'm still paying off student loans, a good education costs money, so pay...or stay away!"
    just because you had a bad experience as a sales person doesn't mean that all, or even most business practices are unethical. I have worked in two major corporations, and both preached ethics constantly and fired people who behaved unethically. Did bad business practices exist? of course, but that is a result of people with poor ethics, not some fundamental flaw in the world of business - or the "underlying essence of business" as you put it.

    Maximizing opportunity? yes. By any means necessary? Only if you are a sleazeball.
  3. nifoc is online now

    Registered Member

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    Uppsala, Sweden
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 4:46am


     Style: FMA, MT & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree that many MA-instuctors are terrible teachers, just because you can fight doesn't mean you can teach it. Good fighters are great sparring partners but sometimes can't explain what they're doing at all. I can therefore agree that the idea of teaching this skill to potential instructors is vital if said instuctor wishes to keep his students.

    HOWEVER: Unless said instructor already is a skilled fighter he should not be using this method of teaching.

    What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that I think most people here have no problem with qualified instructors using this program. Unfortuantely it seem that it's all about the money. If there is some sort of screening process and quality control of instructors then you might become a brand that says quality, otherwise it'll just be a McDojo.

    Personally I don't mind people training MA purely for the physical benefits, it becomes a problem when they think that this will make them ready to defend themselves properly.
  4. Sam Browning is offline

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    New England
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 5:39am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nifoc
    I agree that many MA-instuctors are terrible teachers, just because you can fight doesn't mean you can teach it. Good fighters are great sparring partners but sometimes can't explain what they're doing at all. I can therefore agree that the idea of teaching this skill to potential instructors is vital if said instuctor wishes to keep his students.

    HOWEVER: Unless said instructor already is a skilled fighter he should not be using this method of teaching.

    What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that I think most people here have no problem with qualified instructors using this program. Unfortuantely it seem that it's all about the money. If there is some sort of screening process and quality control of instructors then you might become a brand that says quality, otherwise it'll just be a McDojo.

    Personally I don't mind people training MA purely for the physical benefits, it becomes a problem when they think that this will make them ready to defend themselves properly.
    Which is why this approach would be fine with Cardio Kickboxing but not MMA. The former does not pretend to turn out people with any fighting skills.
  5. nifoc is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 7:31am


     Style: FMA, MT & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I said; if this was only about teaching legitimate instructors how to pass on their skills, I'd be fine. It would seem however that they'll let anyone teach this stuff, even someone who's never trained in MA before.
  6. Nickeroon1987 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 12:04pm


     Style: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One quote on the site confused me a bit: "There's a 18-34 bracket that are fans of MMA ... but not all of them want/need the 'kill or be killed' attitude most MMA gyms have..."

    This quote is paraphrased. It seems to me that any male between 18-35 wouldn't be into MMA or training MMA if they weren't already inclined to wanting a tough workout. They'd go to some sort of mystical TMA class if they didn't want hard physical workouts, they wouldn't be looking for an MMA gym.
  7. Wolf is offline
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    T3h R34l Gangnam Style!

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    Indianapolis, IN
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 12:46pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh man...If you go to the sample combinations page here:

    http://www.martialartsteachers.com/i...e=Combinations

    You'll see, first, shitty combos. Then, in the 4th one listed...the introduction of...wait for it....

    FORMS in MMA!!
  8. Wolf is offline
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    T3h R34l Gangnam Style!

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 12:51pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, looking at him teach the hook...how many of you actually sit back and shift your weight to your back leg when you throw a hook. Seems to me it would take away from you reach. We're always taught to keep our weight centered. He also teaches to lean in on the "reverse punch." Does anyone else have problems with this?
  9. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Washington State
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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 1:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MMA forms...what a joke. Next there will be MMA forms competitions! Well, I doubt that. The reason is, unlike most martial arts, the proving ground for MMA is MMA fighting. No matter how many of these idiots go around doing their MMA forms; as long as we keep MMA fighting up to standard, people who see this as only MMA larping. Even the general public. At least I hope...
  10. kyuktoogi is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2007 1:49pm


     Style: Kyuk Toogi, Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "You'll see, first, shitty combos. Then, in the 4th one listed...the introduction of...wait for it....

    FORMS in MMA!!"

    Wow, everything I hate about martial arts, wrapped up into one balding, out of shape package. :idea1: The American Dream, become a successful martial artist and then prostitute yourself until you have no self respect left.
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