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  1. AlWest is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 4:14am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How can you learn Xingyi at a seminar? You could probably learn how to form Santishi, but not how to perfect it by any means, at a single seminar. Or even, a dozen seminars. I don't know about other xingyi practitioners, but I think that each of the five fists has enough in it to warrant a whole volume of descriptive analysis. Take paoquan, for instance - the follow step, pounding foot, turning of the waist, rotating out of the upper, defensive hand, the forming of the fist and twisting of the front hand; all have to be entirely co-ordinated and happen at the same time to generate that power. Add into that maintaining correct posture - head straight, tongue up - and integrations - front laogong, baihui and front yongquan all have to line up - and you have a technique that takes about 2,000 attempts to get right. And then if we get into the even more detailed internal power analysis, such as the upward whip of the spine combined with a subtle push with the feet, and then the actual form that the power takes (a vibrating power, instead of a crushing power)..... And that's before we've even looked at the health implications. You can't learn that at a seminar, I don't think, unless that seminar happens to be several years in length and be able to accommodate a massive amount of practise.
    Thing is, the lianhuan wasn't even correct in terms of movement. If you look at any good practitioner's lianhuan, it doesn't look anything like that. But, I suppose MengMao is right on the money, and if you aren't aware of it or searching for it beforehand, the truth of the movement won't be revealed to you.
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 4:33am

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwhomp
    1. I use that video to show others what happens when Xing Yi is learned at a weekend seminar. Bad XY looks like good karate.

    2. Also shows how easy XY is to learn and how bad it can be without good instruction

    3. In ref to Meng above: You are right. When labeled with the rest of CMA, most if not all have some ullshit to em. However, grappling and kickboxing are no different; I could point to a bit of bullshit that is taught here that is garbage. Those of us that fight/spar in these realms chose Xing Yi just for the fact of its fighting. This is shown by many of the more well known XY instructors in the US and China that frequently enter or train students for full contact events and such.

    I connot speak to other CMA study as I dont have experience with them short of the occasional sparring with em.
    The issue of BS in Kung Fu is exposed a bit in the videos comments. Not proper form and so on and so forth.

    Can the guy actually fight or apply any of that?

    In grappling and kickboxing there's an empircal test known as competition that clears the clutter. In from based MA - CMA's most Karate and such, not so much. ( and yes I know there's forms compettions but they're subjective not empirical in nature)
  3. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 4:34am


     Style: Xing-Yi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    /shakes head/ Honestly, that is unfairly insulting to karate.
    And this is not what this WHOLE forum is based on?

    I feel I do need to be more honest.

    Yes, I am very bias in regards to Xing Yi. 98% of other CMA I think are garbage.

    I would also say that is true of most of the karate guys I have sparred against, so yes, I have little respect for it.

    Just as I have no respect for these guys that get on their gis and roll around on a mat with no striking. To me? That is pure crap and pointless (outside of a game or sport).
  4. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 4:38am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    The issue of BS in Kung Fu is exposed a bit in the videos comments. Not proper form and so on and so forth.

    Can the guy actually fight or apply any of that?

    In grappling and kickboxing there's an empircal test known as competition that clears the clutter. In from based MA - CMA's most Karate and such, not so much. ( and yes I know there's forms compettions but they're subjective not empirical in nature)
    I would agree 100%. A Xing Yi practioner would most likely lose any forms competition out there. It would be like having a boxer or thai boxers doing the same.

    I also agree that the contact competition does help to clear the clutter. It also does that for me as well in my own art/training/practice. I fully intend on going to the next Chicago Throwdown for this very reason.
  5. AlWest is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 4:58am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    The issue of BS in Kung Fu is exposed a bit in the videos comments. Not proper form and so on and so forth.

    Can the guy actually fight or apply any of that?

    In grappling and kickboxing there's an empircal test known as competition that clears the clutter. In from based MA - CMA's most Karate and such, not so much. ( and yes I know there's forms compettions but they're subjective not empirical in nature)
    True. But even if he could apply those movements, he is not practising xingyi. So even if he turned out to be the best fighter in the world, he should call what he is practising something else.
    We do have sparring in CMA. But until you can perform the movements correctly solo, free-style sparring is not a good idea. Xingyi is a remarkably subtle way to fight, and like all CMA, it takes a certain amount of time to learn, but it is hardly impossible to become a good fighter. In fact, when I look at Jeet Kuen Do, I basically see a lot of what looks like xingyi, with a very practical, streetfighting bent. The concept of trapping is important in xingyi - for instance, one of the postural requirements is, "hu kou yao yuan", the tiger's mouth must round. This makes trapping easier and more natural, as the tiger mouth gap will naturally fold onto an opponent's arm when the movement of parrying and overturning is done correctly. I recently purchased Lamar M Davis II's book, "Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do: Scientific Streetfighting", and I was fascinated by a number of the more advanced applications - they are identical to xingyi applications at a higher level. And the concept of stop kicks is something that I learnt within a xingyi context, and think of as the best way to deal with leg attacks and quick forward movement.
    What I'm saying is, this guy's posture and movement is so off, that fighting is practically impossible at almost any level. His tiger mouth certainly isn't round, for a start. So if he fights, it proves nothing about his xingyi skill, even if he wins. That's how I see it, anyway, and it may not be the orthodox or traditional view, but his form belies the fact that his skill cannot be good at all. And his body mechanics (or if you want to be all traditional and call it "internal power" or whatever else) are not good at all. None of the principles is adhered to, and since principles are all that an art is, he is not performing xingyiquan.
    Also, side note: not all traditional CMA are form-based. Take a look at Baiyuan Tongbeiquan, a northern style. Few movements, one form, not taken seriously and not a major part of training at most levels for most practitioners. Repetitive drills of fistic techniques and footwork are what make up the style, along with relaxation exercises - in particular, of the arm, the aim being to imitate the white gibbon, or Baiyuan, which has long arms. They take offense if you say it's an animal imitation style, though.
  6. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 5:35am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AlWest
    We do have sparring in CMA. But until you can perform the movements correctly solo, free-style sparring is not a good idea.
    I can agree with most of your post except for the above.
  7. AlWest is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 6:03am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you explain why you disagree? I can see a few reasons, the main one being that getting used to ranges and the idea of being in a combative situation are very important, but that is where duida comes in to some extent, and also why it is only a small part of training, a swift transition from solo to free sparring. Free sparring, in my opinion, should only come after techniques are well-known, and after repeated drills. Again, only my opinion. The reason is that if you get into freesparring before knowing good movement, you often end up simply trying to batter the opponent, and will often forget the movements.
  8. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 6:07am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I disagree because the movements, ANY movements for that matter are useless without the fighting behind it. This will also allow for an easier understanding of how-this or why-that if a more fighting based connections are made..
  9. AlWest is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 7:10am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwhomp
    I disagree because the movements, ANY movements for that matter are useless without the fighting behind it. This will also allow for an easier understanding of how-this or why-that if a more fighting based connections are made..
    Discussions of applications and drilling the movements isn't free-sparring, though, and that's a whole different ball game. I'm not saying you shouldn't refrain from training applications and drills before the perfection of the solo movements, but simply to refrain from jumping into a free fight with another practitioner before you've properly drilled and practised, both solo and with a partner for applications. Getting used to the idea and theory behind a fight, training and drilling the techniques and how they are best used and why, these are the pre-requisites for sparring.
  10. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 12:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwhomp
    And this is not what this WHOLE forum is based on?

    I feel I do need to be more honest.

    Yes, I am very bias in regards to Xing Yi. 98% of other CMA I think are garbage.

    I would also say that is true of most of the karate guys I have sparred against, so yes, I have little respect for it.

    Just as I have no respect for these guys that get on their gis and roll around on a mat with no striking. To me? That is pure crap and pointless (outside of a game or sport).
    I think I was put off by the interpretation:
    bad XY looks like good karate -->
    good XY > bad XY > good karate > bad karate.

    There's too much loaded meaning in the phrase looks like, I guess.

    it should be more like this
    good XY ~ good karate
    ----------------------------
    bad XY ~ bad karate
    -------------------------
    bs XY ~ bs karate
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