226187 Bullies, 3939 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 167
Page 1 of 17 1 234511 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. TanPunch is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    7

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 3:02am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Wing Chun Modifications

    Wing Chun deserves to be evolved.

    It was a brilliant art for its time and place. Against other forms of Chinese Gung Fu, it's absolutely amazing, but times have changed. The odds of fighting against traditional Shaolin styles is almost 0%, especially in the ring. Why train a system designed to do just that?

    These days, you will see no horse stances, but you will very likely see 100% ground fighting. That's a far cry from the old scene in ancient China, where almost everyone used a variation of the horse stance and there was a little Chin Na, but no pure ground fighting.

    Luckily, Wing Chun was built on principles and any techniques that fit these principles, can be considered Wing Chun. What art is more disposed to practical evolution?

    ...so why do people bust a Ma stance in the ring?
    ...why do people try to stop a takedown with a chain punch to the top of the head?
    ...where are your brains?

    Here are my thoughts on the direction WIng Chun should go.

    A) Add a stance for the ring --- Don't lose the traditional stances, simply borrow a boxer's footwork until it is the right time for a traditional WC stance to be used. Keep your footwork relaxed and flowing, until it's an appropriate time to root, then you may use the power of the Wing Chun stances. If any of you are fimiliar with the Water/Ice metaphor, then you will know what I'm saying.

    1. Mobility is a tactical advantage.
    2. The Ma is weak to takedowns, due the decreased depth of your base.
    3. The traditional lead stance is also weak to takedowns, due to the rearward weight distribution.
    4. Both are less mobile than the common boxer's stance.


    B) Real ground work --- Simply learn the theories like anything else. Take another art to expand your knowledge of positioning and common strategy. Don't become a BJJ master, but know your enemy. Take what you learned and stylize it with the Wing Chun principles. There is no reason that Wing Chun could not have true ground fighting techniques. The results could actually be pretty interesting, if someone with a brain tried this.

    1. Relaxation (in comparison to your opponent) can be applied to ground fighting.
    2. Economy of motion can be applied to ground fighting.
    3. Directness can be applied to ground fighting.
    4. Simplicity can be applied to ground fighting.
    5. You can utilize superior positioning to afford simultaneous attack/defense.
    6. All principles of Wing Chun can be applied to ground fighting.

    This is due to the fact that Wing Chun was made scientifically. They took the art of stand-up fighting to a whole new level, but that's the problem. The principles were postulated in the context of stand-up fighting. For example, it is tough to apply center line theory as comprehensively on the ground as on your feet, because it was designed to be apply in a standing scenario.

    Even with that said, all you have to do is take WC to the drawing board and write an ammendment in the context of ground principles, rather than stand-up. Unfortunately, I have seen no qualified WC practicioners with experience in ground-based arts and the will/intelligence to pull it off.

    Wing Chun does not have to have an achilles heel. There can be a day where you don't have any more forums roasting Wing Chun for being weak to grappling/ground-fighting. It has the advantage of being evolutionary in nature.

    Does anyone have an opinion on this or suggestions for such an evolution?

    I personally think that if you can take the principles to the limit and expand the art to a whole new level, Wing Chun could cause quite an upset in modern day MMA competition.
  2. BackFistMonkey is offline
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar

    Actual Photo

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    8,285

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 3:17am

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I too hope _ing _un will evolve into some sort of fighting art . I also hope they change the name to reflect it .


    Seriously , if you have to rework the style and change your training methods so it is effective , you really aren't doing said style anymore .

    :homo:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  3. BackFistMonkey is offline
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar

    Actual Photo

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    8,285

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 3:26am

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well ... unless you are doing JKD .

    :confused1
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  4. TanPunch is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    7

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 4:12am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wing Chun isn't defined by what it looks like. The "moves" are just a by-product of the principles. If the principles were different, the "moves" would be different.

    For example, any good instructor will slap you in the face for asking him a question like "What move <insert garbage here>?", then tell you to follow the principles.

    That's why Wing Chun should be the art most inclined to evolve over time, but for some reason, it doesn't. Much worse is that few will admit it.

    In fact, it's extremely common to ask a WC Sifu what you should do if you end up in a ground-fighting scenario and he will tell you "Simply apply the same principles" and proceed to make up crap off the top of his head.

    Sure, the majority of the principles can be adapted to the ground with a little tweaking, but most people don't understand the ground to begin with and, thusly, can not possibly apply the principles properly. Those that offer the enlightenment of WC ground fighting, usually have NO EXPERIENCE IN ANY GRAPPLING-BASED ART.

    Bottom line...

    Wing Chun is effective against the arts that existed in the region it was created. Wing Chun is effective against 95% of the people you will fight in your civilian life. Wing Chun is NOT currently effective in MMA, where ground-based strategies are common.
    Last edited by TanPunch; 4/09/2007 4:16am at .
  5. BackFistMonkey is offline
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar

    Actual Photo

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    8,285

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 4:20am

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    Wing Chun isn't defined by what it looks like. The "moves" are just a by-product of the principles. If the principles were different, the "moves" would be different.

    For example, any good instructor will slap you in the face for asking him a question like "What move <insert garbage here>?", then tell you to follow the principles.

    That's why Wing Chun should be the art most inclined to evolve over time, but for some reason, it doesn't. Much worse is that few will admit it.

    In fact, it's extremely common to ask a WC Sifu what you should do if you end up in a ground-fighting scenario and he will tell you "Simply apply the same principles" and proceed to make up crap off the top of his head.

    Sure, the majority of the principles can be adapted to the ground with a little tweaking, but most people don't understand the ground to begin with and, thusly, can not possibly apply the principles properly. Those that offer the enlightenment of WC ground fighting, usually have NO EXPERIENCE IN ANY GRAPPLING-BASED ART.

    Bottom line...
    ^^This^^ isn't really illustrating your point very well .

    Principles are grand ... but if hold your principles in one hand and **** in the other what are you going to be holding ?

    Look at it this way ... how do you differentiate one style from another ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  6. BackFistMonkey is offline
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar

    Actual Photo

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    8,285

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 4:25am

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch

    Bottom line...

    Wing Chun is effective against the arts that existed in the region it was created. Wing Chun is effective against 95% of the people you will fight in your civilian life. Wing Chun is NOT currently effective in MMA, where ground-based strategies are common.
    You are making statistics up on the fly now .

    After you describe "how (do) you differentiate one style from another ?" go to youtube.com and look at where most of the untrained fights go .
    Spoiler:
    I will give you a head start it has to do with gravity .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  7. TanPunch is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    7

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 4:56am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hahaha, ok ok. Relax.

    - Here's a bit about why WC looks the way it does. Wing Chun is said to be a blend of Crane and Snake Gung Fu. It is so because it's supposed creator knew these styles (and many others), thought up the principles for her new art, then cut away everything that didn't fit. Snake and Crane just happened to contribute more than other styles, including some handy structures. That's the only reason it looks the way it does, right now.

    - Street fights end up on the ground because common people don't have the training to avoid the ground, so they are at the mercy of natural ability (one guy is bigger or has watched a few UFC fights in his day) and luck (someone falls for no reason). That's also true for whoever may be trying to "take them down", which is fortunate. As in most arts, Wing Chun can actually handle some idiot trying to knock them over with stuff they saw the night before on RASSLIN', etc.

    Note - I'm not considering fights between MAs, because the odds of going about your daily life as a cubicle-inhabiting family man, and suddenly finding yourself in a KUNG FU BATTLE TO THE DEATH, are pretty slim--- some insignifigant number, such as 5%, which is where i get my "95%" statistic.

    Seriously...

    Breathe, smell the roses, and stop wasting your energy trying to flame. Something constructive would be a nice change of pace, but I can't really stop you from doing your best to fill my thread up with crap.

    Can't we all just get along?

    Oh, I almost forgot. Here's a specific answer to how you tell arts apart.

    "You tell two arts apart by comparing what you were taught about their nature and what you experienced of their way while under the instruction of qualified teachers, when you learned both of the arts in question."

    Otherwise, you can only describe the arts objectively. This is like comparing a martial art to a chess peice, which can only be defined by the moves it makes. Many will agree that there is MUCH more to MA.

    I have made the mistake of seeing MA objectively before and I have always been amazed to see how much i missed completely. That's the stuff you can't read/see on the internet. The things you can only feel. The web can't even touch the tip of that iceberg.
    Last edited by TanPunch; 4/09/2007 5:19am at .
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 10:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you can get this thread past 400 posts, you are a pretty good troll.



    (Here, I'll help you out a bit.)

    What makes you qualified to decide what should be changed within a given teaching methodology and also qualified to decide what other aspects and principles are applicable beyond the realm for which they were originally designed?

    Be specific.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  9. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    4,839

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 10:55am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wing Chung doesn't work because its principles don't work.
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
    Teh El Macho's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
    Posts
    11,762

    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 12:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    These days, you will see no horse stances, but you will very likely see 100% ground fighting. That's a far cry from the old scene in ancient China, where almost everyone used a variation of the horse stance and there was a little Chin Na, but no pure ground fighting.
    What? I highly, highly, highly doubt that an individual, in the past, that was bent over to punch the crap out of your head would do so from a horse stance. Moreover, it's more likely he would try to do so with a weapons of sort rather than empty handed (given that weapons, both sharp and blunt, were more prevalent in the past than nowadays.)

    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    Luckily, Wing Chun was built on principles and any techniques that fit these principles
    What principles? Besides, all fighting arts are built on principles. You need to be more specific so that this doesn't sound like an oxymoron.


    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    ...so why do people bust a Ma stance in the ring?
    Who does that?


    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    Here are my thoughts on the direction WIng Chun should go.

    A) Add a stance for the ring --- Don't lose the traditional stances, simply borrow a boxer's footwork until it is the right time for a traditional WC stance to be used. Keep your footwork relaxed and flowing, until it's an appropriate time to root, then you may use the power of the Wing Chun stances. If any of you are fimiliar with the Water/Ice metaphor, then you will know what I'm saying.
    Why a stance specific to the ring? You are still thinking of stances as if they are rigid things. Why would a street fight be different from a match in the ring (in term of stances, structures or mobility)?

    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    1. Mobility is a tactical advantage.
    Who's mobility?
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    2. The Ma is weak to takedowns, due the decreased depth of your base.
    Wrong. Takedown defense is not simply about having a low stance or base. I can crouch myself, pretending to be a wrestler, but I don't know how to move and evade, if I don't know how to sprawl, then I have weak (or basically no) takedown defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    3. The traditional lead stance is also weak to takedowns, due to the rearward weight distribution.
    Wrong again (see paragraph above.)
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    4. Both are less mobile than the common boxer's stance.
    I may be misunderstanding what you mean by 'lead stance', but there are boxers with a strong lead out there. I'm not really sure at all what you understand by 'common boxer's stance.'


    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    B) Real ground work --- Simply learn the theories like anything else. Take another art to expand your knowledge of positioning and common strategy. Don't become a BJJ master, but know your enemy.
    So far so good... as long as you are aware that it takes quite a lot of time and effort to learn grappling (.ie. 6 months to a year of continous grappling training under a qualified grappling instructor... just to become efficient with the basics... that's an educated guesstimate, btw) - a lot of people claim to be 'knowing their enemy' by taking a couple of grappling lessons and 'seminars' from somebody who took lessons and 'seminars' from some other person who took lessons and 'seminars'... you get the picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    Take what you learned and stylize it with the Wing Chun principles.
    What the heck does that mean? Why would you do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    1. Relaxation (in comparison to your opponent) can be applied to ground fighting.
    Is relaxation currently missing in ground fighting?
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    2. Economy of motion can be applied to ground fighting.
    is economy of motion missing in ground fighting?
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    3. Directness can be applied to ground fighting.
    How so? Is that attribute missing in ground fighting?
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    4. Simplicity can be applied to ground fighting.
    Is simplicity missing in ground fighting? Is ground fighting unnecessarily complex?
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    5. You can utilize superior positioning to afford simultaneous attack/defense.
    So superior positioning is missing in groundfighting?
    Quote Originally Posted by TanPunch
    6. All principles of Wing Chun can be applied to ground fighting.
    What principles are these? What principles are missing in ground fighting that requires the import of these so-called WC principles?
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
Page 1 of 17 1 234511 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.