Damn Oldman, you and I think alike sometimes. When I read the OP the first thing I thought was he should get a .22 like the Ruger (which I don't own but have shot and it was fantastic!). You then suggested just that. Then when I read that he was also interested in having it for SD I though, hm, then maybe a .38 revolver, or better yet why not just a .357 that he can target shoot with .38s? Which of course you also immediately followed up with.
That sounds like a myth to me. I've known experienced cops and firearm instructors that carried .22s as back-up weapons and they aimed for the dome when they had to draw it. And I myself carry a .22 sometimes as my CCW and was taught by said instructors to aim for the head with it.
A .22 will not penetrate the skull
You being a LEO, I take that as a compliment. Thank You.
I have also seen a .22 LR penetrate the skull of a whitetail deer to devastating effect. (wasnt me that made the shot, and I no longer hunt with the person who took it)
At 30 yds it dropped him like a rock.
A .22 lr probably would penetrate the skull (human skull) under ideal conditions, but a skull doesn't present many flat, weak surfaces. A .22 hitting a glancing blow on the skull is probably more likely to go whanging off some other way. Bullets even get trapped between the skull and the scalp. I haven't heard of it happening with .22, but it's been known to happen with .25 acp.
I can't help but think we're ignoring rifles here. How about a 10/22? Pistols are neat, but they're not the whole world . . . and they don't teach as well as rifles.
**** happens, sweetcakes. I took it hard myself.
Plus I REFUSE to believe that DG is wrong on anything. :)
Bite me! I was having an off day yesterday. :icon_wink
Originally Posted by oldman34
any reputable firearms instructor i have ever met or read work by recomends that a .380 acp be the mininum caliber that should be considered for self-defense. some even consider a .380 acp too small for producing reliable stopping power.
where a .22 lr is concerned. yes a .22 lr can be lethal. the beretta 87 has a long history of being used by intel groups and the ruger mk 1 was used by special ops. yet the low signiture was the primary reason for use.
for training and plinking a .22 lr is highly recommended. for self-defense it has never been a serious contender. calibers in the centerfire range that do not produce significant recoil are better choices. these usually include .380 acp, .38 spl., .38 super, 9mm, .357 sig, .40 s&w, .45 acp, .45 gap (although i hate this one), and maybe a downloaded 10 mm, .357 mag. or .44 spl.
the following advice might not be popular, however it has served me well. get a subscription to a firearms based publication. be it guns and ammo, handguns or whatever magazine appeals to you most. within a few issues you will begin to get a general idea of how different handguns work and what calibers seem to produce reliable results.
too often i have seen people walk into gunshops and buy something the owner or a friend recommended without having a clue if the weapon they selected was the best choice. if you have family and/or friends that own firearms, get them to go to a firing range with you.
You know robin, I wish the rest of us would have thought of that....oh wait....
Most Gun Mags swear by the .45 ACP. It can be misleading. Bullshido is the ONLY place one should get advice for guns.
Get with the program.
I'll take a 9mm over a .38 any day. Beretta Storm. Buy it.
Again, see my post regarding a 1911 in .45 with a conversion kit for .22. If I had the money and could get my wife to let me get a pistol, that would be my #1 option. #2 option would be a Ruger .22 and an SAI .45 XD.
From my limited experience, 9mm is OK accuracy wise, but doesn't really have all that much less recoil than .45. A .38 snubby seems like a really user friendly platform, but that short ass barrel makes it hard as **** to hit anything coke can size or smaller much past 15 feet.
Last edited by TEA; 4/13/2007 3:46pm at .
It's not the gun to be blamed for inaccuracy, it's user error.
And yes, .22's kill. I've seen the remains of the aftermath of a person shot in the head with one.
oldman34- having read gun magazines for a while now (nearly 20 yrs.) my experince with them would incline me to agree that sometimes the articles can be misleading. there does seem to be a certain amount of bias toward certain manufactures, calibers, etc. on the part of various authors.
yet these same gun magazines provide basic information on how guns work and examine the differences in actions, models, calibers, etc. that kind of material can prove valuable to readers thinking about purchasing a gun reguardless of experience level.
about your claim that gun magazines often talk about how great the .45 acp is and how that in specific can be misleading. granted the gun magazines love to run articles about the 1911 and .45 acp. yet for a good reason. that pistol/caliber combo served our military through several wars with distinction. even today the 1911/.45 acp is highly favored by military and specilized law enforcement groups includind lots of civilians.
before you denounce me as being another 1911 and .45 acp nutrider, i carry a handgun on a regular basis that is neither a 1911 configuration or chambered in .45 acp. despite often having recieved negative feedback after having said this i do not belive the 1911, hp-35 (known better as browning hi-power) are the best choices for beginners. and i would say the same about glock models and springfield xd models. they are well made pistols yet thier light trigger pull from first shot can and has led to accidental discharges. for that reason law enforcement generally does not issue 1911 pistols and have looked into alternative types of actions. and so has the military.
far as the .45 acp goes i think it comes down to how much practice a person is willing to spend learning how to control the recoil. otherwise the .45 acp stopping power is legendary. in a large frame pistol i might recomend them. in smaller frame pistols the recoil proves hard to manage for most. as does the .40 s&w for that matter.
the website handgunreviews.com is a fair if not good source for info about firearms as well. in closing my opinion about weapon selection is as follows. decide how much time you are willing to spend on the firing range learning to use any type of gun and deal with the level of felt recoil. by the way those .38 snubbies you refered to. most consider them obsolete by modern standards. poor sights, heavy trigger and lots of felt recoil for the caliber being the primary reasons.
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