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  1. FreeSpeech is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 12:34pm


     Style: Keichu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    Your Soke lies (distorts truth knowingly) and teaches you bullshit techniques (see teh armbar). Please discuss.
    Why is it that you feel that you have been lied to. And what experience with the techniques has lead you to the conclusion that they are....
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    bullshit techniques
    ?

    God Bless.
  2. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 12:40pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not going to sumarize threads for you, especially for ones that you have already participated in. Start with http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47610 which was nicely put together by Samurai Steve.
  3. FreeSpeech is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 12:47pm


     Style: Keichu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    I am not going to sumarize threads for you, especially for ones that you have already participated in. Start with http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47610 which was nicely put together by Samurai Steve.
    I am sorry for the confusion. I did not mean to imply that I was looking for a sumaization of threads. I want to know exactly what has lead you to your logical conclusion that you have been lied to and your experience with our techniques that allows you to come to the logical conclusion that they are below par. That is all. I am not asking for a repeat of previously posted material, I am looking to understand why you feel this way.

    If it is just a matter that you feel that Soke is a liar, and doubt the effectiveness of the techniques with theses statements being the validation themselves. Then we can agree to disagree and go our own ways, hopefully with open minds. I plan on keeping an open mind.

    God Bless.
  4. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 12:51pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let's start small.

    Is he the "Father of American Karate" or is that a fabrication?

    Is Keichu-Do the first true American martial art, or is that a fabrication?

    For the record, are we now going to reopen the discussion on the efficacy of the previously posted armbar "gator roll"?
  5. FreeSpeech is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 1:03pm


     Style: Keichu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    Let's start small.

    Is he the "Father of American Karate" or is that a fabrication?

    Is Keichu-Do the first true American martial art, or is that a fabrication?

    For the record, are we now going to reopen the discussion on the efficacy of the previously posted armbar "gator roll"?
    They are not fbrications and are supported and recognised by the 'Father of Karate in America' Robert Trias and his organisation, among a great deal more.

    So you are basing an entire system's techniques off of the 'efficacy' of the armbar "gator roll"? Ok. Is it safe to assume that your only experience with the Keichu armbar "gator roll" is through still pictures? Is it also safe for me to assume that if you have tried something similar it was not under the supervision of a Keichu instructor, who is well versed with the application of this particular move? As well I need to ask did you read the posts that stated that this move is not a cariculum required technique?

    Let me know if this is satisfactory, please and thank you.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by FreeSpeech; 11/08/2006 2:08pm at .
  6. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 1:10pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How many fathers does American Karate have?

    Is Keichu-Do the first American martial art, then?

    I am indeed basing most of my derision of its techniques based off of it. I welcome alternative techniques, but would also accept tournament records of students or teachers. Do you compete?
  7. FreeSpeech is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 1:34pm


     Style: Keichu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    How many fathers does American Karate have?

    Is Keichu-Do the first American martial art, then?

    I am indeed basing most of my derision of its techniques based off of it. I welcome alternative techniques, but would also accept tournament records of students or teachers.
    Do you compete?

    Not as many as it seems. Robert Trias is the "Father of Karate in America" because
    Robert A. Trias (1923 - 1989), known by some as "the Father of Karate in America," founded the first commercial karate school in the United States
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Trias
    Master Trias later went on to found United States Karate Association. Which is not to be confused with United States Karate Alliance, though the Alliance is a branch off (as is my understanding).

    Keichu-Do is recognized as the first system created by an American to be accepted as a Martial Art.

    There are only so many ways to puch and kick and block so do not be surprised by this but here are a few of the cariculum tech.s:
    Reverse Punch
    Lunge Punch
    Back Fist
    Elbow Smash
    Thrust Kick
    Side Kick (Similar to Shotokan side snap kick but delivered slightly different)
    Back Falls
    Front Falls
    Side Falls
    Roll Outs
    Knee Strikes
    Two Finger Strikes
    Ouchigari
    Osotogari
    Knife Hands
    Ridge Hands
    Parries and Parry Traps
    Kesagatame
    Gyakujujijime
    This list is only pieces of the requirements for the first and third belts. It is by no means a complete list and does not deal with the self defense scenerios that are part of the belt requirements.

    Thank you and God Bless.
    Last edited by FreeSpeech; 11/08/2006 2:12pm at .
  8. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 2:36pm

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeSpeech
    So you are basing an entire system's techniques off of the efficacy of the armbar "gator roll"? Ok. Is it safe to assume that your only experience with the Keichu armbar "gator roll" is through still pictures? Is it also safe for me to assume that if you have tried something similar it was not under the supervision of a Keichu instructor, who is well versed with the application of this particular move? As well I need to ask did you read the posts that stated that this move is not a cariculum required technique?
    By analogy:
    I see a series of pictures of a brain surgeon operating on a patient in the viewing room, for med students to learn his procedure.
    The surgeon cuts 90% of the skullwith a bone saw intended for delicate surgery. Then he takes a hammer to crack at the skull a bit, and then finishes the cut with a chainsaw. The surgeon could have easily finished his cut to open the brain with the nice saw. But he went out of his way to make the technique more complicated and error-prone. There's nothing he could say to the med students around him justifying his procedure -- his procedure is strictly worse than the standard. The pictures are enough to indicate the flaw in his procedure.

    You might say that hey -- the pictures don't tell the whole story. My response is -- the pictures are clearly 1 sequence intended for edification. There's no joke here where the master is fooling around and doing a bad arm-bar. He's serious about the sequence.
    52 blocks documentary: arrived

    "Joe Lauzon looks like a quiet, Internet guy..." -- Dana White
  9. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 3:38pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FreeSpeech
    Not as many as it seems. Robert Trias is the "Father of Karate in America" because

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Trias
    Master Trias later went on to found United States Karate Association. Which is not to be confused with United States Karate Alliance, though the Alliance is a branch off (as is my understanding).
    So Marx is not the Father of American Karate, then?

    Keichu-Do is recognized as the first system created by an American to be accepted as a Martial Art.
    By whom?

    There are only so many ways to puch and kick and block so do not be surprised by this but here are a few of the cariculum tech.s:
    Reverse Punch
    Lunge Punch
    Back Fist
    Elbow Smash
    Thrust Kick
    Side Kick (Similar to Shotokan side snap kick but delivered slightly different)
    Back Falls
    Front Falls
    Side Falls
    Roll Outs
    Knee Strikes
    Two Finger Strikes
    Ouchigari
    Osotogari
    Knife Hands
    Ridge Hands
    Parries and Parry Traps
    Kesagatame
    Gyakujujijime
    This list is only pieces of the requirements for the first and third belts. It is by no means a complete list and does not deal with the self defense scenerios that are part of the belt requirements.

    Thank you and God Bless.
    So Marx repackaged JMA, then? And for the efficacy part, do you (the global Keichu-Do you) compete?
  10. Shawarma is online now

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    Posted On:
    11/08/2006 4:48pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do not judge the technique based on the photos. I judge it based on the photos and the many posts on this thread discussing the technique. Neither leads me to believe that the gator roll is anything but a worthless and overly complicated technique that has been clumsily added onto a good technique (armbar). Why it is preferable to just a standard armbar has yet to be demonstrated convincingly in photos, video or writing.

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