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  1. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,228

    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 12:33pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shovel
    There was an overall theory to Catch. However since the the practice of Catch really died with the end of the Carnival wrestling (the old PRO wrestling) the theory has been greatly abandoned (or lost). If you go back to the Text's that where written around of the century you start to see some of it.

    Most of the catch today IS NOT real catch is as catch can. (Without getting to much in the real debate my!!!) Having some experience with both freestyle and catch I can say that catch is definitly different and is not simply wrestling with subs added.

    As for position over submission in my experience this is not correct. However since the practice of catch no longer exists in it's own right this is one the concepts that has been altered. Most guys how practice Catch do so as a style of grappling and do not use formal catch rules (12 miniute matches, best out of three falls, falls are determined by either pin submission or draw - no point system).

    Why worry so much about position when the pins have been removed and fighting off your back is an option?

    I have also noticed that while practicing catch the positions that I find myself in are very different then when playing a BJJ game. In catch one of the most common positions is the turtle (safe from pin).

    Further not all moves are considered submission attempts. Old manules talk of "inserting a hook" - this refers to any move where you start to apply a destruction to a target. This hook may end in a sub or it may not. The point of a hook is to start the break down/weaken a particular part of the body making futur submissions/pins easier. Hooks may be inserted from any position where there is an opening. If you are against a strong opponent and unable to establish dominence hook can be applied from a less then favorable position. (hence why it may see submission over position).

    Sorry if this is rambeling I do have some sources (but I am at work and they are at home). If anyone is interested I can post them later.
    Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for. Some further questions, if I may:

    1) Do you practice catch in a submission wrestling environment in addition to "pure" catch? If so, what do you change?

    2) How much emphasis is put during catch practice on application in MMA/self-defense? I ask because the turtle is routinely criticized in BJJ for its danger in situations with striking (though usually the criticism is directed towards Judoka) and it seems to occupy a similarly prominent role as in Judo.

    3) As a catch guy (by the way, original American or Japanese-influenced?) what is your perspective on the straight cross-body armbar, and its absence from traditional catch?

    4) Why does catch not have a significant competition presence, whether in open submission grappling tournaments or hosting its own competitions?
  2. fightclubfreak7 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Boone, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    92

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 7:27pm


     Style: MMA, BJJ, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now, im am only at beginer maybe idk beginer to intermediate level in grappling so i don't know if i can thoroughly explain grappling but i will tell you this. Subbmission over position would deffinately not be what i percieve as part of the catch wrestling theory. I don't know that you could really put one over the other but if i had to say it would be position over subbmission. The reason for this is that the rules in the old carny wrestling is that you could be pinned or submitted. Now when i am grappling at my gym we do not go by those rules having sholders on your ground means nothing, submissions are the only way to win.
    But i still say that we probably emphasise position maybe a little more the position, this im sure is not quite the case for bjj, or people just training for submission wrestling competion. Alot of people that come to my gym are interested in MMA, and this is just my opinion if i were training in MMA i would rather be a little bit better at getting dominate position, a little better maybe at going for the top position, or a side mount, even if i was not quite as skilled with my subbmissions. By no means am I saying all catch wrestlers are going to be better at getting on top or be better mma fighters that is certainly not that case at all, far from it. Where i train we learn how to use the guard and such but its not really seen as the best position to be in, and im sure were not quite as good as pulling submisions and controlling an opponent from the guard as a bjj practioner.
    As far as the training goes, at my gym it is very hands on and experienced based. There is also kind of the attitude towards its better to know 9 or 10 subbmissions very well and be able to apply them from different positions, on people with different body types, and apply them very quickly then it is to know a hundred submissions half assed. We spend time learning techniques but well over 60 percent of the time we spend is rolling. Of course for some one like me i get the opportunity to go against new members and experienced ones. When im going against an experienced one they will often give me pointers or if they tap me out with something ive never seen before often they will teach me how to do that hold. In a way it may be better to spend more time learning techniques but i like how much time we spend rolling, it helps just to have more experience behind you and plus your body gets a lot tougher from doing it.
    IM not going to say my cath wrestling iis the "real catch" because we don't roll with the same rules as they do but i do know my cath wrestling is based off the real thing and not just by some bozo who picked up a catch wrestling book and decided to teach. My instructors are Billy Wicks and Johnny Huskey
  3. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,228

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 7:47pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How much of a competition presence does your school have? Do your schoolmates enter open submission tournaments, MMA competitions, or no-gi BJJ tournaments?

    How much takedown work and defense do you work?

    Do you practice the triangle (with legs), arm triangles, and other no-gi chokes extensively, or are they marginalized? How about the omoplata (shoulder coil)? Armbar, from guard or on top?
  4. Nickeroon1987 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    396

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 8:17pm


     Style: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've heard catch wrestlers try submissions from any position, even unfavorable ones. Is this true? Is this in traditional catch, or some hybrid?
  5. fightclubfreak7 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Boone, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    92

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 10:02pm


     Style: MMA, BJJ, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation
    How much of a competition presence does your school have? Do your schoolmates enter open submission tournaments, MMA competitions, or no-gi BJJ tournaments?

    How much takedown work and defense do you work?

    Do you practice the triangle (with legs), arm triangles, and other no-gi chokes extensively, or are they marginalized? How about the omoplata (shoulder coil)? Armbar, from guard or on top?
    Well i wouldn't really call it a school more of a club, and of course there are no gi's and there are not belts. As far as I know we have never gone to a competion as a whole, but there have been several guys that have gone out to submision wrestling tournaments that i have seen videos of. Ive also seen a few MMA fights of several of the guys and a few guys have even placed in tough man contests not that it relates to grappling really. We do practice All of the holds you mentioned although many of the guys there (not all) will almost always perfer a head siscor over a triangle. We practice lots of chokes but more neck cranks
  6. fightclubfreak7 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Boone, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    92

    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 10:05pm


     Style: MMA, BJJ, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickeroon1987
    I've heard catch wrestlers try submissions from any position, even unfavorable ones. Is this true? Is this in traditional catch, or some hybrid?
    Not that i am aware of, i havn't ever seen this and it doesn't make much sense to try a submission if you are in an unfavorable position in which you can't apply it. How ever there are some guys that will put on say a side double wrist lock (kimura) on some one when they start grappling or if they are on all fours and some one reaches around them. Even though they can't squeeze the hold on right then the keep a hold of it and wrestle for a better position and then apply it. Not used that often but i think it works wells sometimes, not a very good idea for an mma bout i would guess since your hands are tied up.
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