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  1. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 7:23pm

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Upside Down, Palm Out - Thumb Down Hook?

    I first saw this in my Silat class and was completely flabbergasted by it. My teacher chambered and then instead of throwning a regular hook, he turned his hand over, thumb down / palm & fingers out, cocked his wrist up, and threw this funny hook.
    I was absolutely compelled to grill him on this, but then he showed me how fast it can be thrown, how it can actually go around some blocks, and then he hit the heavy bag with it, with his head against the bag as in very short range. Damn did he move that bag & dented it too!

    Is anyone else familiar with this strike?
  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 8:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of shaolin based arts have this sort of strike, but it is thrown as a wide hook called a "horn punch" or a sow choi. It can hit with the fist or the inside of the forearm.
  3. meng_mao is offline
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    software engineer

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 9:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Throwing it wide is also called a Russian hook.
    http://www.sherdog.com/news/picture_...p?pic_id=12587
    This is just a cross, but it's sort of like a Russian hook.

    http://www.sherdog.com/news/picture_...sp?pic_id=9959
    http://www.sherdog.com/news/picture_...p?pic_id=32172
    Ice Cold was great with Russian hooks, even though he was Ukranian, go figure.

    I think the technique is more or less Dempsey's whirl punch. With the thumb down.
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  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 9:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seems like one has to have incredibly hulkish strong wrists to make that work without having them blow up in a cloud of confetti, stronger than what would be required to a "regular" punch, no?
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  5. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 9:53pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah, seems fairly awkward to me for a hook.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  6. Sir Ocelot is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 10:46pm


     Style: WMA (various)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    I think the technique is more or less Dempsey's whirl punch. With the thumb down.
    Dempsey doesn't describe a "whirl punch" per se -- the shoulder whirl is just the mechanic underlying both his normal standing straight punches and hooks. (And any wide hook "against a good straight puncher signals to the mortician".)

    That said, I've been taught a long inverted hook as a form of the "rounding blow" from bare-knuckle boxing. I can't think of any specific citations to support this off the top of my head; it isn't really something I use.
  7. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 11:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's not a hook in the sense that your elbow is bent. That's why I think whirling punch is a better descriptor. I've tried it before, and while I'm a pretty weak puncher, I can see how it would jack up your wrist if you connected wrong (eg. on the back of the hand instead of flush with the 1st and 2nd knuckles.). I also occasionally hit the bag with my thumb and first finger. I'm almost positive this kind of contact is what caused Fedor to break his thumb in training and during fights.
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  8. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2007 11:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Ocelot
    Dempsey doesn't describe a "whirl punch" per se -- the shoulder whirl is just the mechanic underlying both his normal standing straight punches and hooks. (And any wide hook "against a good straight puncher signals to the mortician".)

    That said, I've been taught a long inverted hook as a form of the "rounding blow" from bare-knuckle boxing. I can't think of any specific citations to support this off the top of my head; it isn't really something I use.
    Went to the other thread and read Dempsey's work. You're right -- a straight armed rotating punch he calls a swing. I think I've seen that demonstrated on some MT instructionals as well, also calling it a swing. In both cases, the swing is not intended, nor capable for finishing power. When Igor and Fedor use Russian hooks, they're doing it with full force at range, I guess relying on the power to intimidate the opponent into not countering.
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  9. Khun Kao is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2007 10:39am


     Style: MuayThai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In MuayThai, I've begun referring to this punch as an "inverted hook" (my own terminology). Its sort of a cross between a Russian Hook, Overhand Punch, or Swinging Punch. You can pack a lot of heat on this punch, but it takes time to condition your hand/wrist for this type of strike.

    In the variation of this technique that I use, you swing your shoulder and body with a bent arm. The actual impact surface can be the knuckles, back of hand, or wrist. The knuckles and wrist pack the most wallop. The back of the hand is kinda weak.
  10. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/04/2007 2:39pm


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dempsy talks about a 'corkscrew hook' which might be similar, except it is a medium (jab) range punch. Mark Hatmaker describes it in his book and the JKD straight lead book talks about it also.

    Here is an excerpt from Dempsy's book:

    However, it is so difficult to get proper power into an outside left hook (without telegraphing) that the "cork-screw" is used. The late Kid McCoy, foxy old-time middleweight, made famous the corkscrew left hook. Try the corkscrew on the bag. Stand in normal position. Do the following movements slowly: Start your shoulder whirl as if you were to shoot a medium-range left jab. No preparatory movement. Instead of jabbing, however, snap your left forearm and fist down and your left elbow up. Your left fist snaps down with a screwing motion that causes your striking knuckles to land properly on the target. When your fist explodes against the target, your forearm is almost parallel to the floor (Figure 33A and B).
    When you first try the corkscrew, the combination of movements will seem silly and futile. It will seem like a fizzle. With a little practice, however, you'll master it.

    Let me help you at this point by admitting that the cork-screw usually is a medium-range punch, and that it's usually delivered while you are circling to your opponent's right. For that reason, it's nearly impossible to keep the corkscrew as pure-as tight-as the hooks you were throwing from the ideal position. Nevertheless, you can make the corkscrew explosive enough to stun an opponent, or at least to set him up for another punch. Moreover, if you have a potent left corkscrew that flashes in without warning, your opponent will be very cautious about menacing you with his right fist. Remember that your left hand, in normal position, is always closer to your opponent's head than his right hand is to your head. As he attempts to start a straight right, you can beat him to the punch with your countering corkscrew. Moreover, if he permits his guarding right hand to creep too far forward as he blocks or parries your left jabs, your corkscrew can snap down behind that guarding right and nail his jaw.
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