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  1. TheRuss is offline
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    is badder than you

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2009 1:59pm

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    Vitamin D's easy to get when it's warm and sunny out. It's usually the winter months when it becomes a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  2. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2009 3:58pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    Vitamin D's easy to get when it's warm and sunny out.
    Not so much for those who spend the daylight hours indoors -- working in an office and posting on forums, for example. Here is a long popular science read on the subject.

    For parents: levels are low in many children by the old standards, which may soon be revised upward by an order of magnitude. Potential effects include weight gain and stunted growth.

    Special sport performance link for The Russ: Vitamin D Status and Muscle Function in Post-Menarchal Adolescent Girls (yes, I also need more research to draw firm conclusions, but the metabolic effects of this particular hormone are many and poorly understood).
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  3. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2009 4:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    Not so much for those who spend the daylight hours indoors -- working in an office and posting on forums, for example.
    Speaking as someone who works in an office and posts on forums, it's still not hard at all to top up on Vitamin D - when it's warm out.

    No single recommendation for adequate sunlight exposure can be made; any such statement must always be qualified with time and place. It is estimated (41) that for the elderly white population of Boston, exposing hands face and arms on a clear summer day for 10-15 minutes (depending on pigmentation), 2-3 times a week, should be sufficient to maintain a healthy vitamin D status.
    -Webb, "The Role of Sunlight in the Cutaneous Production of Vitamin D3"

    Edit: From the SciAm article:
    Enough vitamin D for good health can be synthesized in skin with sun exposure that might produce at most a slight pinkness, however. For most fair- and medium-skinned people in North America, this takes five to 15 minutes of sunlight between 10:00 A.M. and 3:00 P.M. during the summertime.
    Last edited by TheRuss; 5/31/2009 5:16pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  4. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2009 6:45pm


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    That paper is from 1988. More recent research, amply available via the usual sources, reports -- based on blood level sampling -- that sunlight isn't getting the job done for many people at high latitudes (including Western Europe and Northern US/Canada).

    Europeans generally have low serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] levels owing to the high latitudes, largely indoor living, low natural dietary sources of vitamin D such as cold-water ocean fish, and lack of effective vitamin D fortification of food in most countries.
    From: Estimated benefit of increased vitamin D status in reducing the economic burden of disease in western Europe

    ... it's also worth mentioning that sunblock prevents D3 synthesis by blocking UVB, as does clothing (duh). Quantity of skin surface area directly exposed to the sun is important because the synthesis is rate/area is limited (excess D3 in the skin is broken down by sunlight, which mechanism prevents hypervitaminosis via sun exposure).

    Anyway, do whatever you feel is right for you.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  5. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2009 8:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    More recent research, amply available via the usual sources, reports -- based on blood level sampling -- that sunlight isn't getting the job done for many people at high latitudes (including Western Europe and Northern US/Canada).
    Mostly during the winter. The sunlight is somewhat reduced (both in terms of hours and intensity), but what really ruins endogenous vitamin D production is the area of skin exposed thanks to cold weather. When it's -40 out, the sun's plenty bright, but you do not want to bare your arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    ... it's also worth mentioning that sunblock prevents D3 synthesis by blocking UVB, as does clothing (duh). Quantity of skin surface area directly exposed to the sun is important because the synthesis is rate/area is limited (excess D3 in the skin is broken down by sunlight, which mechanism prevents hypervitaminosis via sun exposure).
    And it's provitamin-D limited, so there's a hard limit to how much previtamin-D the body can produce in a few days per region of skin exposed.

    Still, laying in the back yard shirtless for a few minutes every few days when it's sunny out produces shitloads of Vitamin D (thousands of IU), which your liver can cache. Same can be accomplished by wearing shorts and a T-shirt while riding one's bike to work. No need to get sunburnt.

    Edit: Again, from the SciAm article you posted...

    To put this in perspective, an adult woman with white skin exposed to summer sun while wearing a bikini generates about 10,000 IU of vitamin D in 15 to 20 minutes.
    Last edited by TheRuss; 5/31/2009 8:04pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.
  6. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/02/2009 10:42am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss View Post
    To put this in perspective, an adult woman with white skin exposed to summer sun while wearing a bikini generates about 10,000 IU of vitamin D in 15 to 20 minutes.
    I think I've figured out why we're talking past one another. There's no doubt that the above method would get the job done. However, office workers don't strip to skivvies for a 20 minute sun bath come lunch time. The standard pattern is: awake in an enclosed house, put on trousers and a full shirt, take some form of enclosed transit to an enclosed office, then reverse that commute home to the aforementioned closed house, with the result — based on the empirical evidence of randomized blood testing — that they're just not getting enough D, even in the presence of fortified foods.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  7. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2009 11:11am

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    This is my advice on diet:

    You are an animal. You evolved to eat certain things. Unfortunately you are not a Koala bear, and you eat more than one thing.

    Follow these principles:

    Principle: Do not eat anything that is inedible in its natural state. Man evolved in the absence of technology. Fire is technology.
    Application: Don't eat any Soy. Period.

    Principle: Do not rely on any food source that is scarce in the wild.
    Corollary: Do not rely on any food source that is a product of selective breeding.
    Application: Don't base your diet around the potato.

    Principle: If an essential nutrient is only available in a few foods, Man evolved to eat them. Do so.
    Application: You need Omega 3's. Eat nuts and fish, not rice and omega-3 pills.

    Principle: Do not rely (for protein) on foods that have an incomplete amino acid profile. Biochemisty is a relatively recent invention.
    Application: Man did not know to combine rice and beans when He evolved. Eat some meat.

    Principle: The ability to metabolize Lactose is supposed to be lost in adulthood. Caucasians are mutants. Man did not evolve with dairy as an adult food source.
    Application: You are not "Lactose Intollerant" you are Homo Sapiens. Put down the block of cheese.

    Principle: "Sugar" does not exist in nature any more than Gasoline does. It is a technological product. Avoid it like Mercury.
    Corollary: Neither does "Juice".
    Application: The next time you want to drink a quart of OJ in the morning to "get going" try eating 15 oranges instead and see how far you get.

    Principle: Just because you can get something down something doesn't mean you were meant to eat it.
    Application: Everclear is an explosive, and you can digest it. Paint chips are sweet and yummy (trust me). So is antifreeze. Don't put any of these in your mouth. Or Kool-Whip.

    And finally, if you can't do any of the above, use the following "master rule"

    Principle: Anything that makes you fart is poison.

    Of course I don't do any of this. I only eat my son's half finished bowls of Mac and Cheese. But I will when he moves out. I promise. Really.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 6/02/2009 11:41am at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  8. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/02/2009 3:23pm


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    While I agree with most of your points, these two are problematic:

    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    Fire is technology.
    We've had fire since long before we were modern (500,000 in Europe, probably longer in Africa), and even great apes prefer many foods cooked.

    Quote Originally Posted by War Wheel View Post
    Principle: The ability to metabolize Lactose is supposed to be lost in adulthood. Caucasians are mutants. Man did not evolve with dairy as an adult food source.
    Four different populations -- Europeans in general and three African groups: Tanzanians, Kenyans and Sudanese -- have independently developed lactase persistence via different mutations (parallel evolution in action!). Direct evidence for dairy farming runs back nearly 10,000 YBP ranging from Turkey to England.

    While I agree that many persons who shouldn't eat dairy for reasons ranging from indigestion to sub-clinical allergic reactions (worsening of autoimmune disorders, &c), what about those who've been adapting to dairy since the dawn of animal domestication (i.e. nearly 20K years)? If we were to extend this logic far enough, we'd have to ignore our amylase mutation and give up all starches...
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  9. Matt Phillips is online now
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2009 3:43pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    If we were to extend this logic far enough, we'd have to ignore our amylase mutation and give up all starches...
    That is excellent advice.

    Let me state my point in the abstract: I don't want you to eat like early man; I want you to eat like original man. Your body evolved to thrive on a certain diet and nothing that fire or boiling water or agriculture, etc. adds to that equation can be essential to your health. If it was essential it would have been available to Man when he first emerged.

    I am not pushing the "Paleo" diet; I'm suggesting we eat the diet we evolved to eat, and not eat anything demonstrably not part of that diet like:

    Tofu
    Walrus
    Penguins
    Potatoes
    Maize
    Carnation Instant Breakfast
    Orange juice
    Kool-Whip
    Cottage Cheese
    Rice
    A nice biscotti
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  10. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2009 3:56pm

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    What do you have against eating Penguins?
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