Smooth Ass Joints

[Teh El Macho]

I've heard that if you add epson salt to the hot water, it helps in reducing swelling and pain in the joints... don't know if it's true, though.

There is one thing we use back in Nicaragua and Honduras for arthritis... I know, I know, it's going to be one of those 'armadillo oil' products. It's actually an ointment made out of cow fat... more precisely, the fat that lies right underneat a cow's hide.

Stinks and smells awful, but for some reasons it has very powerful anti-inflamatory properties (in particular when applied warm/hot.) I truly hated the smell, but I was forced to use it once when I a piece of lumber hit my knuckles and the back of my right hand long ago. It worked, but it the smell is just fucking horrible.

[El Neko]

Hey Macho, since we're talking about joints, Have you heard about SuperCissus (Cissus Quadrangularis)

what's your opinion?

[Teh El Macho]

Wow, that's a new one. I did a quick search and there are several articles discussing its healing properties for bone fracture as well as a fat-loss supplement and as an anti-bacterial. I didn't see anything (yet) with regards to join/ligament health; I wouldn't know what to say or suggest. This is the very first time I've seen this product (????).

[El Neko]

actually I found this product on a tapout magazine, they recomend this one product, and I quote, because "Cissus quadrangularis is the new age of joint and tendon supplements.... blah blah blah, stuff, whatever.... A new innovative company has a patent on it's newly discovered properties for tendon, joint and ligament problems like tendonitis, rotator cuff injuries and torn muscles. It's the only supplement in the world that BUILDS tendon and ligament strenght...."

So, that was why I was wondering. (Also, has anybody use the Couture line of supplements?

[Neildo]

Ooh. I should look into that stuff.

[rw4th]

What about taking a Boron supplement?

Guy at the supplement store recommended that instead of Glucosamine.

[Teh El Macho]

Ummmm, boron? I never thought of it as a nutritional supplement. A quick search found the following (see colored text for highlights):

From wikipedia:

Boron deficiency (medicine)

This article is about boron deficiency in animals. For the same deficiency in plants, see boron deficiency (plant disorder).

Boron deficiency is a pathology which may occur in animals due to a lack of boron. A report given by E. Wayne Johnson et al at the 2005 Alan D. Leman Swine Conference[1] suggests that boron deficiency produces osteochondrosis in swine that is correctable by addition of 25 ppm of boron to the diet. The amount of boron required by animals and humans is not yet well established.

According to some natural therapy researchers,[2] topsoil used over long periods of time for agriculture become boron-deficient to some extent, and humans eating produce from boron-rich soils have reduced incidence of arthritis and osteoporosis.


* References
1 http://www.cvm.umn.edu/outreach/events/adl/home.html
2 http://www.arthritiseducation.org.uk/

Also, from http://www.lef.org/abstracts/codex/boron_index.htm

Boron Overview

Boron is a trace element which has an important influence on both calcium and magnesium metabolism. Boron is concentrated in the bone, spleen, and thyroid indicating boron’s functions in bone metabolism and suggesting a potential role for boron in hormone metabolism. Boron is thought to be useful to increase muscle mass; increase muscle strength; maintain bone density; improve calcium absorption; decrease body fat.

According to the USDA, boron is a trace mineral that helps bones develop and grow normally. Boron becomes especially important when there is not enough vitamin D in the diet. Boron may also prevent arthritis in the elderly.

Research has shown that low boron diets have been associated with reduced testosterone levels and boron supplements have been shown to increase serum levels of testosterone in postmenopausal women. This finding caused an increase in boron supplements targeting athletes and bodybuilders for boosting testosterone levels, strength and muscle mass. However, specific research on athletes has not yet confirmed this association that boron alone will boost testosterone.

Dietary Sources: Dried fruits, nuts, dark green leafy vegetables, applesauce, grape juice, and cooked dried beans and peas. Meat and fish are poor dietary sources of boron. One mg of boron is found in 1.5 ounces of raisins or prunes; 2 ounces of almonds or peanuts; 4 ounces of red wine

Dosage: Daily needs for boron probably fall somewhere around 1 mg.

Side Effects: 1-10 mg per day is considered safe, but caution is warranted at higher intake levels as consumption of 50 mg or more may be linked to toxicity, loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting, skin rashes, lethargy, and diarrhea.

(Source: http://www.nal.usda.gov/ttic/tektran...000096130.html and www.supplementwatch.com)

Research Overview

A review of animal and human research on boron yielded the following information which points to a much more comprehensive view of boron.

Deficiency in boron has been shown to contribute to:
1. Abnormal embryo development
2. Decreased sperm count
3. Ovarian deterioration
4. Damage in reproductive function
5. Decrease in electrical activity in the brain
6. Sub optimal mineral metabolism
7. Poor manual dexterity
8. Impaired hand-eye coordination

Boron supplementation was found to:
1. Increase steroid hormone levels (testosterone) and therefore may be of interest to athletes
2. Increase bone growth and strength
3. Augment estrogen function and therefore may help prevent atherosclerosis
4. Improve brain function and cognitive functioning
5. Reduce HDL cholesterol
6. Affect thyroid hormone levels
7. Alleviate harmful effects of vitamin D, magnesium, and potassium deficiency in postmenopausal bone loss
8. Play a role in the prevention of osteoporosis
9. Be of benefit in the treatment of arthritis
10. Prevents calcium loss in postmenopausal women

Some information about Boron:
1. Dried prunes are a good source of boron
2. The bones of humans using boron supplement are harder to cut
3. Research indicates that areas of the world with highest intake of dietary boron have the lowest incidence of arthritis
4. Boron increased life span in animal studies
5. Boron works synergistically with calcium and magnesium
6. Boron balances vitamin D3 deficiency
7. Boron contributes to growth cartilage maturation

[Teh El Macho]

There appears to be various products that contain boron, some (not all) of them geared to bodybuilding:

Metagenics - Cal Apatite with Boron Dietary Supplement - 90 Tablets (Boron 300mcg) http://www.luckyvitamin.com/755571013163.html

SuperNutrition - Glucosamine Sulfate 1000 Mg w/ Boron & Manganese - 100 Tablets (Boron 1mcg) http://www.luckyvitamin.com/033739002045.html

Centrum (Boron 150mcg) http://www.centrum.com/products/labeling_centrum.asp

Centrum Performance (Boron 60mcg) http://www.centrumperformance.com/products/labeling.asp

Centrum Silver (Boron 150mcg) http://www.centrum.com/products/silv...els/silver.asp

I was surprised to see that a common bodybuilding vitamin supplement, Animal Pack, didn't have boron in it. All the products listed above already contain boron in amounts ranging from 60mcg (0.06mg) to 150mgc (0.15mg). So far so good, but the problem I have is that they are already packed with other stuff.

Ideally I would like to see Boron by itself so that I can take it with my glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM complex (rather than buying a whole new complex again.) Perhaps I found one that may fit the bill:

Nature's Way Boron 3 mg
100 Capsules - http://www.physicianformulas.com/sto...290&name=Boron

Notice that this puppy has 3mg (3000mcg). That's 20 times more than what's in Centrum Silver (but well within the recommended range of 1mg to 10mg.)

DO NOT TAKE THIS AS MEDICAL ADVISE - make your own judgement. I for one, I'm gonna get me that Boron 3mg supplement and add it to my collection of pills.

[Neildo]

I've heard that if you add epson salt to the hot water, it helps in reducing swelling and pain in the joints... don't know if it's true, though.

Hold on, people use epson salts for something else? What?

I thought it's primary purpose was for adding to hot bath water to relieve pain in joints and muscles.

unfortunately for me, i don't have a bathtub. I just have a shower in my suite. I was thinking about sneaking a cup of epsom salts in to a hot tub or something at a public pool.

[Teh El Macho]

Hold on, people use epson salts for something else? What?

mix one tablespoon of epson salt with 8oz of water, and voila, you have a very powerful laxative. :tongue6: