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  1. Naszir is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 11:23am


     Style: BJJ, Judo, SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oddly enough my cousin, who is a 2nd degree black belt getting ready to test for her 3rd degree, and I were talking about this over dinner yesterday. We got to talking about the belt advancements in TKD and she felt things were very easy up to black belt but then got much more difficult. This means that most of the people who weren't very good but went to class would advance up to black and then leave. What she wanted was for the lower belts to be tougher. She looked at me like I was crazy when I told her how long on average it took to get to purple belt in bjj.

    That said, she thought that the bjj progression rate seemed to allow for better quality control but at the cost of giving students a feeling of progression. She also said that if she decides to open her own dojang, she would probably follow a progression somewhere between the two. Oh, and bring in grappling coaches, along with an upfront policy about hygeine and clean doboks.
  2. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 11:30am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    The problem is there's always a handful of idiots who will look at the color of their belts and still think they're as good as the ones that can actually fight. These students will go on to teach others, spreading their line of crap and possibly putting people in danger.
    OK, but lets be entirely honest here. There is a HUGE piece of Martial arts and martial traditions that has gone over to theatre and commerce because thats what people want. Image sells while hard work, dedication and commitment don't. I'm not saying its right but rather that it is an attitude that plays itself out in about a dozen different ways. For instance, look at the threads on this particular forum-- BULLSHIDO.

    If you are looking at threads where people rant, throw around opinions, bicker and call names you will have a thread that can go on for pages with no real content. I am talking about pages and pages of one-liners, "playing the dozens", double entendre-s and so forth.

    Now take the same threads and introduce problem-solving, citations, resources and accountability and watch how fast the discussions dry-up! In the American culture the very worst thing that can happen to a person is to allow himself to get tripped-up in being held accountable. OTOH we almost worship the guy who is clever enough to dodge the "accountability bullet"(aka: "ain't he slick"), right?

    In the best of all possible worlds people would not be promoted unless they have demonstrated they skills in some sort of practical venue such as, say, Western Boxers do with their competition record, yes? Is this going to happen in KMT? Not when I can go to a typical seminar and see all the upper ranks standing around on the edge of the mats, or spending all their time "coaching" the "less skilled" instead of getting on the mat and working WITH the other people!

    Even when the rank is about "character development" what sort of challenges have these folks been put through to demonstrate that they have, in fact, developed a better Character?

    Until people actually make rank worth something, it gonna stay worthless. This isn't rocket science, ya know?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  3. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 11:40am

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My genius is underappreciated.
  4. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 11:41am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    OK, but lets be entirely honest here. There is a HUGE piece of Martial arts and martial traditions that has gone over to theatre and commerce because thats what people want. Image sells while hard work, dedication and commitment don't. I'm not saying its right but rather that it is an attitude that plays itself out in about a dozen different ways. For instance, look at the threads on this particular forum-- BULLSHIDO.

    If you are looking at threads where people rant, throw around opinions, bicker and call names you will have a thread that can go on for pages with no real content. I am talking about pages and pages of one-liners, "playing the dozens", double entendre-s and so forth.

    Now take the same threads and introduce problem-solving, citations, resources and accountability and watch how fast the discussions dry-up! In the American culture the very worst thing that can happen to a person is to allow himself to get tripped-up in being held accountable. OTOH we almost worship the guy who is clever enough to dodge the "accountability bullet"(aka: "ain't he slick"), right?

    In the best of all possible worlds people would not be promoted unless they have demonstrated they skills in some sort of practical venue such as, say, Western Boxers do with their competition record, yes? Is this going to happen in KMT? Not when I can go to a typical seminar and see all the upper ranks standing around on the edge of the mats, or spending all their time "coaching" the "less skilled" instead of getting on the mat and working WITH the other people!

    Even when the rank is about "character development" what sort of challenges have these folks been put through to demonstrate that they have, in fact, developed a better Character?

    Until people actually make rank worth something, it gonna stay worthless. This isn't rocket science, ya know?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Not sure if you are agreeing with me here or not.

    But whatever, it's not rocket science.

    Belt = fighting ability. Since that isn't the case, get rid of belts.

    Simple.
  5. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 1:23pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Not sure if you are agreeing with me here or not.

    But whatever, it's not rocket science.

    Belt = fighting ability. Since that isn't the case, get rid of belts.

    Simple.
    Close, but not exactly right. I DO agree that performance needs to be an over-riding factor. What I am having a problem with is that people pay this apprach only lip-service.

    I am not for getting rid of rank "just-because". If it can serve a purpose I say keep it. The issue I have is that people agree that it serves a purpose and there are people, organizations and arts that use it that way. All good. All good. At the same time, however, there are people who want to use the same system but make what it represents more philosophical or even esoteric.

    I say, let the people who want to use a performance criteria use the rank system. Let the people who want to make participation a gymnastic "warm-fuzzy" develope a system of their own. Kano had a very clear purpose when he instituted a ranking system and it was definitely performance-based. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  6. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2007 2:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Close, but not exactly right. I DO agree that performance needs to be an over-riding factor. What I am having a problem with is that people pay this apprach only lip-service.
    Not really, plenty of clubs and schools do not have belts. My BJJ club only awards belts based on competitions and performance. Generally if you don't compete, you don't get rankings.

    I am not for getting rid of rank "just-because". If it can serve a purpose I say keep it. The issue I have is that people agree that it serves a purpose and there are people, organizations and arts that use it that way. All good. All good. At the same time, however, there are people who want to use the same system but make what it represents more philosophical or even esoteric.
    I'm not ssaying get rid of it on a whim, I'm saying get rid of it because it's harmful to martial arts. It's worth as an organizational tool is overrated. The definition of the belt has changed, and it's purpose no longer necessary. Get rid of it before does more damage.

    I say, let the people who want to use a performance criteria use the rank system. Let the people who want to make participation a gymnastic "warm-fuzzy" develope a system of their own. Kano had a very clear purpose when he instituted a ranking system and it was definitely performance-based. Thoughts?
    You're going to tell a bunch of frauds and mcdojo belt factories that they have to give up belts? That will be pretty difficult. Easier to either 1.) schools that still care about fighting, dont' use belts or 2.) bring back the definition of the belt.
  7. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2007 8:48am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "....You're going to tell a bunch of frauds and mcdojo belt factories that they have to give up belts? That will be pretty difficult. Easier to either 1.) schools that still care about fighting, dont' use belts or 2.) bring back the definition of the belt..."

    Given that choice I would go with bringing back the definition of the belt. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  8. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2007 1:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oooooor, and bear with me, people stop giving a **** about what belt someone is wearing. Seriously, who gives a ****. I"ve seen so many people wear so many different belts that it's mind boggling. If some asshat wants to buy a black belt in whatever art will selll it, great, I don't care. I'll still be able to kick his ass and take it from him if I chose too. They aren't bothering me otherwise. I'm not one to deprive someone of pleasure in life, especially if that pleasure involves wearing an antiquated peice of fashion. The objective fact that I can turn them into a pretzel or a dripping tomato can will still stand. Live and let live.

    You know what bothers me more than belts? Trucker hats. But you don't see me starting a crusade to abolish trucker hats.
    Last edited by MaverickZ; 4/10/2007 1:48pm at .
  9. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2007 3:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the belt meant anything the GREAT. I look at my BJJ instructor and his BB and KNOW that he is a qualified instructor.

    I look at at my TKD instructor, and realize that she hasnt taken a class in 5 years, or sparred in 3.

    See the difference?
  10. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2007 3:34am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess we'll all just have to do the work for them and know in our hearts that not all belts are equal. Which really won't be all that tough, because we all know that not all martial artists, or martial arts for that matter, are equal.

    Belts/ranks aren't universal, much as we'd all like them to be. They give you some information on the style, but more so the organization, and mostly on the school itself. The fact is that it's not information on fighting ability. Even BJJ belts don't give all that much information on fighting ability, because a low ranked BJJist can be (and often is) still a hell of a fighter.
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